Killer7 SINdicate

[gabriel]

I've been pretty disappointed in the online Shin Megami Tensei community for a while and a friend recommended me this place, so I'm going to try and start something here.

It seems that in recent years the most common interpretation of Megaten seems to be a power fantasy for fedora wearing reddit atheist where they get to kill god and stick it to those dumb conservatard christians. /suicide

I have to ask, have any of them ever played the games?

I have not played SMT5, so for all I know Lucifer is a spotless hero in that game. Persona 5 certainly seemed to be heading that way by making the protagonist's final persona be Satanael, a rebellious angel which in catholic myths has been conflated with Lucifer, Satan, and Baphomet.

Every time a christ-like figure is presented in the series, it is defined as a hero of the people, no ifs and no buts. Examples include Persona 3, Strange Journey, and both versions of SMT4 where both of the protagonists are described as messiahs.



This misconception is likely based on the fact that yahweh the tetragrammaton is often a villain in these games. But the thing is, yahweh is often associated with yaldabaoth, who, in gnostic doctrine, is an entity that deceives his followers into thinking he is the one god.



Yaldabaoth even appeared in persona 5 as the final boss, but of course it makes no sense because he's being fought by satanael, an angel that in gnostic doctrine actually served him, but I prefer to pretend the latest games do not exist because Atlus is now a corporate entity free of creators or artists or anyone with any shred of dignity making dating games for lonely weebs /kiwif

Point is the LAW faction is not christian, it's the hebrews. In the game's mythology, it is the messiah's role to end the tyranny of yahweh through self sacrifice, like christ forming a new covenant with all of humanity through crucifixion. SMT4 reveals that this happens on the behest of the great will/reason, which is the actual driving force of the universe, in other words the one true god that is worshiped by christians and by muslims as allah.

In the actual games, yahweh is no different than the other daemons, djinns, archons that the hero fights and recruits. It's not the one true god, which cannot be interacted with or fought in any of the games. In the true demon ending of SMT3 Lucifer does try to rebel against the great will of the universe, but secret fights with hitoshura in dds make it clear that the attempt has failed.

The interpretation that megaten is an anti-christian power fantasy is nonsense. It would actually be much simpler to infer that the game is antisemitic. But it seems that the so called fans of the series have no interest in mythology or religion whatsoever.

To my knowledge the only time some discourse happened around megaten and antisemitism is when this blogpost was making the rounds.
https://eirikrjs.blogspot.com/2017/06/jjcat.html

The idea that people have is that these are games where you fight side by side with lucifer against god. Lucifer is never shown as a hero in any of the games I played. He is a deceiver who dangles the promise of freedom to manipulate events to his advantage. How free is the CHAOS faction really if it has one supreme ruler? CHAOS faction is a return to pagan idolatry which lucifer uses for his own ends. Humanity is not free.

This is all born from out of context interpretations of Milton's Paradise Lost, namely of the one quote "it's better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" which was meant by Milton as a manifestation of lucifer's sin of pride.

That he believed himself all powerful when he was not, which is why he is also sexually impotent.

Paradise Lost is a christian text where lucifer is shown as the supreme sinner, who condemns himself to hell by denying himself, god and his role in the cosmos. But of course online discussion is now dominated by post modernist college graduates who believe in death of the author, so any text can mean anything that's convenient to their subreddit that day. /suicide

If anything SMT could only be interpreted as pro christian as there is no bad example of the messiah or the actual true god unless you count the hippie in persona 3, but that was probably meant to be antichrist as the hero is crucified at the end as the true messiah.
Every other religion gets at least some villains, even Buddhism since matreya is a smug asshole in apocalypse.

[player1]

Point is the LAW faction is not christian, it's the hebrews. In the game's mythology, it is the messiah's role to end the tyranny of yahweh through self sacrifice, like christ forming a new covenant with all of humanity through crucifixion. SMT4 reveals that this happens on the behest of the great will/reason, which is the actual driving force of the universe, in other words the one true god that is worshiped by christians and by muslims as allah.

Huh, haven't really gave the whole thing that much thought, but you're certainly right that LAW faction initially presents Old Testament and by the end of the game, messiac figure makes new testament by killing the old God and becoming something akin to man-god. Though it's mostly true for SJ and IV.
Still, I can't understand the last sentence. Why you exclude hebrews while talking about Allah? If anything, Christians worship JC Denton. Still, with reading this

In the actual games, yahweh is no different than the other daemons, djinns, archons that the hero fights and recruits. It's not the one true god, which cannot be interacted with or fought in any of the games. In the true demon ending of SMT3 Lucifer does try to rebel against the great will of the universe, but secret fights with hitoshura in dds make it clear that the attempt has failed.

I kinda see the point of comparing the Great Will to Allah. After all, both YHVH and JC Denton are acting as enemies in the series, and out of all religions only Allah/TheAxiom remains untouched.

The interpretation that megaten is an anti-christian power fantasy is nonsense. It would actually be much simpler to infer that the game is antisemitic. But it seems that the so called fans of the series have no interest in mythology or religion whatsoever.

It's rare to see SMT game not being biased towards neutral or chaos path, so it's easier to see a game with more positive portrayal of Lucifer or staying status quo and rejecting both sides, eventually killing YHVH, as anti-christian (though I'm not sure). It's not something new that megaten fanbase haven't tried to read some texts and instead arguing which side is the best.

Lucifer is never shown as a hero in any of the games I played. He is a deceiver who dangles the promise of freedom to manipulate events to his advantage.

Isn't it kinda proves the point, when majority of people think as Lucifer as the saviour, though he really is not. But I heard that in recent games portrayal of Luci was more on a positive note.

But of course online discussion is now dominated by post modernist college graduates who believe in death of the author, so any text can mean anything that's convenient to their subreddit that day.

Online discussions are now dominated by the opinion of one or two video essayist. I'm not sure people try to make their own bullshit opinions instead they watch some cool video on the topic

[gabriel]

Huh, haven't really gave the whole thing that much thought, but you're certainly right that LAW faction initially presents Old Testament and by the end of the game, messiac figure makes new testament by killing the old God and becoming something akin to man-god. Though it's mostly true for SJ and IV.
Still, I can't understand the last sentence. Why you exclude hebrews while talking about Allah? If anything, Christians worship JC Denton.

Islam is a post-christian religion, hebrew is pre-christian. Meaning the idea of god allah in islam is already influenced by the monotheism as understood by christians, which is one all-encompassing god with lesser gods being false idols.
The old testament predates christianity, though catholicism later tried to unify all european faiths by reinterpreting pagan idols as saints who are closer to god and by claiming that christ was the coming messiah from the old testament. /xed

The words of christ in the new testament "father why have you abandoned me" have been changed to "it is accomplished" in some regions for this reason.

I want to state before anyone labels me as an antisemite that this has nothing to do with my personal preference. It is simply a fact that the islamic faith came after christ, while hebrew faith came before. Buddhism predates christianity too and gnostics certainly seem to think there is overlap there. /cow

Isn't it kinda proves the point, when majority of people think as Lucifer as the saviour, though he really is not. But I heard that in recent games portrayal of Luci was more on a positive note.

I heard a lot about this. Can you tell me more? I have not played persona 5 smt5 and soul hackers 2.

Online discussions are now dominated by the opinion of one or two video essayist. I'm not sure people try to make their own bullshit opinions instead they watch some cool video on the topic

It is probably the case. I get the impression from being on reddit that people just post whichever opinions will get more upvotes. Nobody is interested in having a conversation, even on 4chan anons just repeat the same memes ad nauseam. I try to find old internet people on platforms like this but most seem to have vanished. I had some interesting conversations with the webmaster of Paradise Hotel 51 and he directed me here, but he's not interested in posting either /brb

I come as a SMT fan, but I have been absorbing some of 51's games and may help with graphics later on /seph

[player1]

Islam is a post-christian religion, hebrew is pre-christian. Meaning the idea of god allah in islam is already influenced by the monotheism as understood by christians, which is one all-encompassing god with lesser gods being false idols.
The old testament predates christianity, though catholicism later tried to unify all european faiths by reinterpreting pagan idols as saints who are closer to god and by claiming that christ was the coming messiah from the old testament. /xed

The words of christ in the new testament "father why have you abandoned me" have been changed to "it is accomplished" in some regions for this reason.

Oh, I was only puzzled by the choice of word Allah. Haven't heard about catholics saints. Though I don't think it's any different in orthodox. Well, at least from what I know, in orthodox most saints are just people who suffered because of faith. Still, I'm luzzled by "by claiming that christ was the coming messiah from the old testament". It was claimed by catholics? I think it was outright stated in the New Testament which relates to Christianity, not Catholics branch. But that's doesn't matter.

I want to state before anyone labels me as an antisemite that this has nothing to do with my personal preference. It is simply a fact that the islamic faith came after christ, while hebrew faith came before. Buddhism predates christianity too and gnostics certainly seem to think there is overlap there. /cow

There are 0 people on this forum who would've thought like that. I mean, it's basic knowledge. Still, I wish there were more representation of islamic mythos, even though majority of them were based on Biblical ones with different names.

I heard a lot about this. Can you tell me more? I have not played persona 5 smt5 and soul hackers 2.

I'm not sure myself, since I was bored with how SMTV played early hours, but it seems that Luci pwnd YHVH and then realized that he's bound to suffer any way and he's like a martyr and you put him out of misery and whatnot.

It is probably the case. I get the impression from being on reddit that people just post whichever opinions will get more upvotes. Nobody is interested in having a conversation, even on 4chan anons just repeat the same memes ad nauseam. I try to find old internet people on platforms like this but most seem to have vanished. I had some interesting conversations with the webmaster of Paradise Hotel 51 and he directed me here, but he's not interested in posting either /brb

Reddit is a karmaposting goodboi opinions by default. That's the way how it's system works. 4chan with vocal minority acting like reddit is the cancer, shows us the other side of mental illness where discussions are not allowed and only karmaposting, but it's called baiting, allowed and other nonsencencial shit that's whole /v/ and other vidya boards. Though once in a lifetime there are good threads about SMT. But it's a chore to find one.
Sadly, PH51 is almost dead and online platforms for interactions nowadays are either reddit/4chan or discord, all of them motha fucking suck.