Out of utter boredom one day I was looking through the history of Polynesian peoples and stumbled upon the Moriori people. They're the native inhabitants of the Chatham Islands, which are a part of New Zealand. Today they are very few in number, with Wikipedia's sources reporting that there are only approximately 700 Moriori in existence, of which only 36 live in their native homeland.
Now, the thing about the Moriori that caught my attention was their history and traditions. To be specific, their pacifistic culture and their eventual massacre at the hands of foreign Maori invaders. To me this appeared to be very similar to the same of Lospass natives.
Both were pacifistic island nations, and both eventually met their demise at the hands of other militaristic islanders (The Japanese/Mayor Hachisuka's guys in case of the Lospass islanders and the Maori in case of the Moriori).
To elaborate, when the Moriori arrived in the Chatham Islands, they went through intertribal conflict until a prominent chief Nunuku-whenua established "Nunuku's Law" which outlawed all forms of killing/conflict and instead they were to be settled through non-lethal duels. According to page 15 of the guidebook, people of the Lospass also went through similar conflict until a woman was chosen by the Gods to keep spinning the divine wheels in order to establish peace among the islanders. Although this account appears to be one of the island's mythology, I assume some of it is grounded within the reality of the game as the woman spinning two "wheels" doesn't seem to be quite dissimilar to that of the old lady Ritz, who is bound to a wheelchair.
Unfortunately for both the Moriori and the Lospass islanders, this culture of pacifism would eventually lead to their demise at the hands of other expansionist powers. However, I don't think the Maori tribes that invaded the Chathams did it to harvest some weird ass hyena eyes or some shit like that lol. Rather it'd probably be in search of new land to settle in, or so I thought from my short glance over Wikipedia pages.
Though this isn't where the similarities ended for me. Shit, even the way these 2 islands are organised are quite similar. I'll let the images do the talking here.
However Lospass is situated in Micronesia while the Chatham Islands are part of Polynesia, so here's where the geographic similarities end.
With all that being said, I wonder - how the fuck did some random bunch of Japanese weirdos manage to create a world & narrative so similar to that of a very obscure location and culture of the world? What kinda message did Suda try to portray with this? Or have I simply gone insane after my attempts to study for college entrances and I'm looking way too deep into this? Who knows!
That was a film about conflict between old, conservative Japan (represented as island aborigens) and modern, technology-based (factories or commercialized plantations that are built). And main character is kinda agent who goes to island for inspection and prepare island for official renovation. But falls in love with one of aborigen women. After which things get worse...
wow.. we're sky high.. that shark we just jumped over is tiny.. we're so high right now (c)
This is a very good post. Do you mind if I post it on the website? I won't do it immediately, I'll just use it as part of my article about the Sundance people I eventually plan on writing.
(Before I move on to writing in-depth analysis I want to take some time off of work to replay all the games and take notes, which won't happen before november at least.)
It reminded me of some posts on the old forums where Jack and an old user called Spellbreaker were discussing how the Sundances might have been inspired by Ainu culture.
I actually went back and dug them out (that archiver dude stopped responding to me, I guess I took too long giving him access but the interface on tapatalk really did suck ass lol.)
Spellbreaker
I'm sure you're aware how much Suda 51 seems to love using Ainu mythology. I think a corollary could be drawn between the Sundances of old and the ancient customs of the Ainu people (another classic example would be that of Native Americans vs. Colonialists). Their mythology seems to be where the idea of the Kamui comes from (and is actually an Ainu word for a kind of "god"; I think it's where the Japanese term kami comes from), Sundance Shot's hair (judging from the Wikipedia article) is styled Ainu style, and Ritz's bungalow on Lospass seems to be described (at least from the outside) in a similar way to traditional Ainu houses. Another interesting coincidence (?) is that the Ainu believe in six heavens and six hells and the Transmitter section of the Silver Case is made up of six cases. (source)
I should also point out that the entirety of the Samurai Champloo game Suda 51 wrote takes place in Ezo, and the character he created specifically for the game, Worso, is an Ainu.
Jack
Yup I'm fascinated with the Ainu. I posted many times about them in this site under different names & monikers.
I used to think I was Ainu myself, turns out I'm just mixed.
That Tsubaki singer, & that Sumio look alike I posted look like they could be modern day Ainu. (They sure don't look japanese nor mixed although they're officially classified as Japanese.)
It's hard to determine who's ainu or not due to most Ainu individuals not even being aware of their heritage at all. Which sounds a lot like Remy, imo.
I always thought that Sundance's hair was Victorian. I always saw him as being someone from a fallen civilization, so I equated him with the Victorian era, although him being a representative of Ainu makes much more sense. (Or ainu like people.)
Considering that he used to participate in Japanese politics.
Japanese politics doesn't have many foreigners in high positions.
Which means that racially Sundance would have to fit into either the yayoi (japanese/korean) or jomon (emishi/ainu) phenotypes. He most likely classifies under jomon.
I wish we still had people making posts like yours, that actually relate to the real world instead of the crazy shit that goes on nowadays, where Suda games are supposedly about protecting the rights of anime characters or some shit
According to page 15 of the guidebook, people of the Lospass also went through similar conflict until a woman was chosen by the Gods to keep spinning the divine wheels in order to establish peace among the islanders. Although this account appears to be one of the island's mythology, I assume some of it is grounded within the reality of the game as the woman spinning two "wheels" doesn't seem to be quite dissimilar to that of the old lady Ritz, who is bound to a wheelchair.
I came to the same conclusion back on the older forum as well. I quoted my entire post because it had a lot of interesting shit I might recycle for the website as well.
Suda 51 is on drugs when he writes this bullshit. How the fuck does a Hyena's eyes make you immortal? Are the hyena's immortal too? Who knows? The game never elaborates on it. How did those Hyena become special, with silver eyes? Are they Alien Hyenas, oh I know, they're God's Hyenas. (DERP!) I see silver eyed Raccoons out in the wild, silver eyes generally mean that they're blind & lost all sight in the eye, LOL!
A breeding ground for silver eyes of immortality that came from some random ass Hyena that's native to some randomly magic island. While I do believe that the world is controlled through the Occult, masqueraded as politics. In real life you could substitute silver eyes with womens' fetuses since a lot of superstitious rich retards believe that the blood & sacrifice of children will make them immortal. In a way you could also say that this moves them closer, inch by inch to their God.
I get all that, it's just when I see a video game depiction of that, that's as outlandish as Silver Case/FSR, I just can't take it seriously at all. I was able to take K7 seriously since I just view the in-game events as canon, & I ignore all of the weird retarded shit that didn't make into the final product. K7's in-game events can easily be rationalized as psychopolitical. SC/FSR is beyond psychology & politics.
Is it really though? While I can summarize what we are told about the Sundance clan traditions & lifestyle, it is quite clear it's rooted in half truths and myth. The history of the Sundance people has been bulldozed & a summer resort has been built over it. We'll never know the whole truth about them.
Which is why I assume Silver Eyes only seem magical, because they were built by a technology we have no way of understanding. I don't even know wether the Hyena story is true, you only see one hyena with Tokio and it's not like you jack into it or anything that could prove it actually has an immortal silver eye lol. Even if it were though, I never assumed it was actually a breed of a hyena. More like an artificial animal meant to house silver eyes for Sundance tribesmen. The presentation is just as abstract as Killer7, which is why I can summarize events but I don't necessairly take them literally.
Even Kamui is described both as God, and as a program. As in a program that exists within the silver eye architecture.
By the time the 25th ward takes place (2005), Silver Eyes are used as massive data repositories, and the story about immortality is considered superstition. Observers are given silver eyes so that they can record the activities of Divers and postal workers (the 25th ward's thought police).
Hell as much as I'm not a fan of these games all taking place in the same timeline. By the time no more heroes rolls around, even cloning machines are acknowledged technology (Bad Girl has one in the basement just so she can stream herself murdering people on the equivalent of liveleaks LOL).
The CIA has a game console that is actually a psyop to steal genetic data from random fucks in TSA. The cartridges are actually shaped as eyes too.
In kurayami dance, Akari Tsukiyono has an eye that is just used to record her life and experiences and it's just referred to as a memory device. https://mangalove.org/kurayami-dance/chapter-12?page=22
My personal take on all of this. Is that the Sundance clan history/myth is the equivalent of what Alex Jones is going on about when he says modern technology comes from interdimensional aliens that commune with the elites.
Modern technology does have a mystical allure in that we went from horse and carriages to smartphones within the span of 150 years.
I know I have a smartphone that is actually a more powerful computer than what occupied half a room when I was a little kid, that can connect to 'the internet' (an invisible web of connections that exists everywhere and nowhere) to grab information at any point and that can also be tracked via GPS by satellites.
On some level, my brain knows this is not normal. And for all I know about its functioning, it may as well be magic.
Now I could disassemble my smartphone and study each of its components and its history, but whatever they did to build it, can you really deny an absurd claim such as that technology was imparted upon humans by interdimensional aliens? LOL.
In the Suda timeline, there's artificial eyes that connect you to a web of stock bodies, that contain a program called Kamui whose purpose is murder. Does it really matter, if they come from a mystical ancient people or if it's just very advanced technology that seem magical to us?
The Lospass Guidebook even has a fable about the Sundance people, which is very clearly allegorical.
The Story Carved into the Ruins
It was a time before mankind possessed tools. A black-robed man who commanded five crows arrived and bestowed upon the people knowledge and tools. However, the foolish people used the gifts he had given them to wage war upon each other. Greatly upset by their actions, the man begged the gods for their forgiveness. The gods ordered the daughter of the black-robed man to be placed in the Tower of the Gods and to spin the two divine wheels found within. When the two wheels were set to spinning, the people laid down their weapons and ceased their fighting. Many years passed, and yet the people of the land lived on in peace. The daughter of the black-robed man grew old.
One day, a young girl felt sorry for the old woman of the tower and her continued spinning of the two divine wheels. She clutched a bouquet of flowers to her chest and prayed to the gods, telling them that man had become truly wise, and vowing that even if the divine wheels were to stop turning there would be no wars. The people of the land saw the girl and they gathered around her and began to pray in front of the tower.
As the sun appeared over the eastern horizon, a man arrived from over the seas carrying a box made of metal. The man looked over the praying people with a wordless smile, then stood in front of the tower. He turned to his left and began circling the tower, his footfalls making no sound. After circling the monument twenty-four times he gently placed his hand on the tower's stone plate, opened his metal box and started to chant.
With that, the tower was transformed into the form of a giant man, and a gentle rain fell across the land. When the rain fell upon the old woman it washed the years from her form and she became young once again. The two divine wheels ceased their spinning and faded away. The people whom the rain touched lost their knowledge and their tools.
After the man with the metal box watched the change in the people, he vanished into the west with the setting sun. To solve all problems, the man took everything away. Despite this, the ideal of nothingness he left behind led our ancestors to greatness.
The woman who has to spin two "divine" wheels and grew old, I believe is actually Sundance Ritz. An old woman who is the sole survivor of the genocide of her tribe, who is condemned to spin the wheels because she's stuck in a wheelchair. So we already know the fable is not meant to be read literally. There's no magic rain making her young again. The closest thing she has to a second youth, is having Sumio Mondo (someone who is not even a Sundance) inherit the history and will of the Sundance people, in order to pass it off to Step (who is also not even a Sundance LOL! The only surviving Sundances are Ritz and Osato from the 25th Ward, Sundance Shot doesen't seem to have a physical body at all).
It's really no different from how american indians were mystified through the ages here in the west. There's been so much literature spinning their history both positively and negatively that truth and fiction may as well be one and the same at this point. Nowadays you have people who are 1/16th cherokee claiming they deserve reparations because of the suffering of their people.
In the words of tony soprano, it was so long ago it might as well have been a fucking movie
Perhaps it's a left over from Moonlight Syndrome. I actually like the supernatural aspects of that game though, but even in that game there's still lots of specualtion as to whether it were all psychological, or supernatural.
Ghosts are definetly factually real in Suda games though to be fair. In the 25th Ward they are described more as remnant thoughts or feelings that linger after death.
That does not break my immersion because, I'm not gonna go into detail but I do believe something is left behind of human conciousness after death. You may call it a ghost as the closest approximation we have to that concept in pop culture though I don't actually believe in a fucking floating sheet with eyes LOL. But I know what I know and I know I can definetly tell the difference between a place that is 'haunted' and one that isn't. I only had what I would describe as a close encounter once and it was enough for me to just accept this as a fact from now on. Though I wouldn't blame anybody for considering me fucked in the head or just a retard. It's just a reality that is manifest to me.
I actually remember someone (I think it was you, but I'm not positive) discussing how in japan they often demolish old buildings specifically so they don't accumulate hauntings over the decades. That makes sense to me as that definetly happens. Ancient houses in particular are fucked up.
Though knowing that, it's interesting how it ties in with Moonlight Syndrome where the very first scene is the old school building being demolished.
Bit of an off topic but the twilight syndrome games are being translated on youtube these days and I think they contain the best character writing in any Suda game.
(I don't know why there's this rumor among Suda fans that he barely had anything to do with Twilight/Moonlight syndrome nowadays. He was brought in when development of the first game was already underway, but he was still director of the entire trilogy. He was clearly already involved in development by the time they were recording dialogue as per this interview. http://fftranslations.atspace.co.uk/syn/twint.html)
Through the two TS games, you really do see the friendship between Yukari Hasegawa, Chisato Itsushima and Mika Kishii develop. Yukari can't even stand Mika at first. In a very realistic bit of character writing, she only hangs out with Mika because her household situation is fucked up (her dad left, and her mom doesen't really know her because she'd rather look at television broadcasts of what teenagers are doing and believe those than talk to her own daughter. My mother is similar in that she doesen't really know me, and just has a vague idea of what I must be because she grew up listening & believing to television programs telling her all about younger people.) and she'd rather have something to do than be at home.
(Yukari is also in a relationship with a student teacher, which must be kept secret, explaining why she doesen't have much to do in her spare time to the point where she'd have to hang out with a girl she finds obnoxious just to be out of the house.)
The way they actually grow close to each other is quite realistic and well developed, which makes it all the more tragic that Yukari and Chisato both die in order to save Mika who does not in fact get saved at all.
Xed51 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:32 pm
This is a very good post. Do you mind if I post it on the website? I won't do it immediately, I'll just use it as part of my article about the Sundance people I eventually plan on writing.
Yeah sure, go ahead. It'd be interesting to see your take on this matter. Just credit my username down there somewhere.
Iwazaru wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:21 pm
Hm, interesting.
That was a film about conflict between old, conservative Japan (represented as island aborigens) and modern, technology-based (factories or commercialized plantations that are built). And main character is kinda agent who goes to island for inspection and prepare island for official renovation. But falls in love with one of aborigen women. After which things get worse...
The premise of the film seems intriguing to me, guess I'll give it a watch once I'm done with my college admissions.
That was a film about conflict between old, conservative Japan (represented as island aborigens) and modern, technology-based (factories or commercialized plantations that are built). And main character is kinda agent who goes to island for inspection and prepare island for official renovation. But falls in love with one of aborigen women. After which things get worse...
I've finally got around watching this film after your recommendation and I gotta say man, I'll never fucking stick my dick in a crazy chick, nor am I gonna cheat on my wife. That shit ain't worth the risk, I'm telling ya!
Toriko... she sure did give me the chills... Is that where the inspiration for Toriko Kusabi came? I can see a couple of similarities here and there, mostly being that both of them creeped me out.
The story of Kurage Island and the Futori family was very beautifully narrated, and I couldn't have it any other way. Thanks a lot for recommending this movie!
Sorry for veering off topic but were you on the old forums cake? I apologise if I don't recognize you but I was always shit at keeping track of usernames.
(70% of my conversations with Qish are like "wait who was that one person?" LOL! NoAcceptance especially has had a whole bunch of usernames, so I tend to forget which ones he goes by exactly. Not that I blame him, I used to do the same before abandoning the internet altogether.)
I only ask because you seem to know your shit, as in, you seem to have actually played the fucking games this website is built around that nobody cares about anymore. If you ever want to post more about them feel free to do so, I would enjoy that because I really have noone to talk about them other than Qish (Iwazaru) here. I'll definetly reply, I used to write long ass posts about them on the old forums.
Hell if you ever read any of the articles I write for the website and have any opinions on them, feel free to share them. I was toying with the idea of opening a discussion thread about them every time I posted a new one but I felt it would be too self-indulgent lol. (I really don't think that highly of myself despite what people might think.) I haven't gotten to flower sun and rain yet, I'm focusing on the TSC section for now but I'll get there eventually. It is my favourite suda game alongside Killer7, hence why I got both of them signed by him.
And no I still haven't seen Qish's movie even though he has been raccomending it in the past as well. I haven't really found the time yet but I will comment on it once I do.
Xed51 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:18 pm
Sorry for veering off topic but were you on the old forums cake? I apologise if I don't recognize you but I was always shit at keeping track of usernames.
Naw man, I'm new to this site and Suda51 games as a whole. I started getting into this stuff after playing The Silver Case in March of this year. I found it on the Steam discovery queue and saw it was on sale for cheap so I thought that I'd might as well buy it since it looked cool. Usually I play games as a means to escape reality, but this shit was one of those that fucking pulled me back in. The stuff was one of a kind, and I was hooked! That led me to finding out more about the guy behind the game and so I went on a journey and slowly played em one by one. It was around that time I came across this site.
Hell if you ever read any of the articles I write for the website and have any opinions on them, feel free to share them.
I'll certainly keep that in mind once I get done catching up with some studying. I fucking hate Chemistry, but hey you gotta do what you gotta do.
