lepch1qosldnb In the Name of Harman Lead [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 13 06 5:24 PM
Reply Quote
TAGS : None
Does anybody have the vaguest idea who the hell Harman is in the game?
If you've noticed I left Kun Lan & Harman's profile blank in the cast page.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/cast.htm
Because I don't know what to say about them.
(Never did Greg nightmare's profile either,but that's because I'm lazy.)
The plot faq has the most logical conclusion of who Harman Smith is, but even than I'm still confused.
Who the hell is the old guy in the wheelchair at Garcian's trailer?
Did he even exist to begin with? Or was it too just an imaginary being?
I view one harman as a state of mind,another Harman as the real person (principal of Coburn),and the other Harman as a celestial entity.
Hell for all I know the young Harman was probably just a government agent posing as Harman Smith.
I may seem like I'm asking rhetorical questions,but fo' real though I'm asking straight up,
(This is the main reason why I only stick to politics,because it's the only part of the game that makes sense, and doesn't rely on specualation.)
True Grave #1 [-]
Posts: 950
May 13 06 8:49 PM
Reply Quote
Well I've read that FAQ that speaks of three entities of Harman Smith. And I can say for sure there at least was a man named Harman Smith. After all,
his dead body is evidence as well as his past relationship with Colburn Elementary. But it does make sense that there are 3 separate versions of
Harman Smith. The Harman Smith that personally knows Kun Lan must exist on a celestial level since I believe that Kun does too. I mean the
epilouge that takes place 100 years later shows both men in the same physical condition they were 100 years ago. And it reinforces the Japanese
theme of a never ending battle between good and evil, which is also shown in the kick ass movie "Versus."
When you see "Master" Harman dead inside the trailer, one thing is clear. That version of Harman Smith has been dead since you first turned Killer
7 on. In the mission "Smile" we are also given the facts that what Emir saw inside the safe was the dead body of Harman Smith. This in turn
awokened his third eye. At this point in the game we see Emir losing touch with Garcian Smith, and is being re-introducted to his true self, Emir
Parkreiner. And we also know that Emir has some immortality, because the game did say he killed himself at the age of 13. As for the man inside the
trailer with Samantha, my answer is it's the body of a man that has been dressed up by Emir, and taken care of by Samantha who is being paid by
Emir to do so. I mean when ever you are inside Master Harman's room after Samantha "turns off the lights" you can freely walk around to talk to
Iwarazu. But we never really see the full face of the man sitting in the wheelchair. As for the "lights" deal, I believe this is the way Emir
"communicates with the dead Harman Smith. He has to switch to the Harman channel, where no other personality is selectable, not even his own.
Samantha probably changes to help him deal with this facade, and once the "lights" are off she turns back into the college slut every frat boy has
dreamed of.
Now Young Harman Smith is something I'm still dealing with. I'm refering to the man who weilds the Tommy Gun, (or Chicago Typewriter) in Killer 8
mode. Two things are clear. One, he is the man who shot the shit outta both Kun Lan and H. Smith in the top floor of the hotel. So he has the
ability to intereact with them on thier celestial level, if thats where they are in that part of the game. Two, Young H. Smith can physically
communicate and interact with Emir/Garcian. He, along with Johnny Gagnon, were also at the top floor of the Hotel talking to Emir/Garcian during
both of his visits to the Hotel.
I also see the symbolism that particular plot FAQ says about all the characters representing one big Chess game.
lepch1qosldnb #2 [-]
You seem to be getting way too much info from the plot faq. Which is mostly speculation, & not official. The plot faq is commendable though since
it's obvious that he conducted a lot of research while writing the faq.
I do admit most of the plot faq does coincide with what I believe it still doesn't provide any concrete answers.
I do agree that Versus & K7 do share a common theme,but it's not a battle of good & evil.
IMO Kun Lan is not, and never was evil.
(Ignore all the profiles that call him evil. I feel that's just part of killer 7's propaganda theme that was introduced in Alter ego.)
He embodies the rebellious,chaotic,revolutionary side in all of us. Where as Harman Smith embodies Law & Order, Slave/servant & Master.
(Garcian=slave/servant Harman=master)
It's more of an eternal battle battle between order & chaos.
In the K7 plot faq it's even stated that Harman Smith could be considered an anti-christ figure. I actually agree with this,because of his extreme
version of law & order. (Law= Harman's word, Order= Death from the 7 Smiths.)
If you remember the ending in Versus the girl says something about how she should've been on the other guys side. (The bad guy)
Because the hero turned out to be worse than the bad guy ever was.
The hero of Versus pretty much destroys the world in the future due to his chaotic nature.
That was not Johnny Gagnon at the top of the hotel. It was the Third eye
Dimitri nightmare.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... dsmile.jpg
The third eye is a common trait of enlightenment that we all share, but not everybody can open their 3rd eye.
http://www.bethcoleman.net/3rdeye.html
I don't believe that Garcian is immortal, because during the game young Harman said he first met Garcian at the rooftop the night of the murders.
Meaning that Emir possibly didn't endure a fatal blow. (Even though he shot the inside of his mouth.)
The way I see it the supposed fact that Emir killed himself is probably being used as propaganda by the government to cover up the secret of the
union hotel murders. If you look back at history you realize that almost everything that we know of as fact, is in fact inaccurate,and is merely the
commonly accepted truth by the masses.
For every truth that we know there's always another side to the story only known by a handful of the population.
What I'm trying to get at is the Emir is a mere human who doesn't have any super natural powers. The super natural powers that Emir has came from
the original Harman Smith, because Garcian is also a persona of Harman Smith himself.
Due to Emir's lack of emotonal stability that he's had since the Union hotel murders it was easy for certain factions within the American government
to brainwash Emir into believing a certain reality.
This coincides with the whole purpose of Coburn Elementary.
Which is an institue that brainwashes kids utilizing japanese WW II Elementary school doctrine to infiltrate the American government making them
side with the Japanese covertly.
The interesting aspect about Samantha is that according to Hand in Killer 7, she really was appointed there (Garcian's trailer.) to faciliate Emir's
facade by an agent from the U.S. government.
Which makes sense, because Emir's illusion started to fall apart when both Samantha & Mills died.
Yes I also agree with Killer 7 being one big chess game,but that's mainly because in essence that's all geo politics really is one big chess game.
We've all been driven into a stalemate ever since WW II.
Instead of total wars most 1st world governments fight using information warfare much similar to all the events that you see transpire in killer 7.
IMO the War on terrorism is just an operation to mask their motives to make it sound more heroic. (I'm not a liberal btw so don't expect moi to
shout about oil or some other nonsense. I'm strictly a libertarian.)
In Killer 7 the videogame equivalent of "War on Terrorism" would be the Yakumo cabinet policy which also masks the intents of the Japanese
government
So far we pretty much agree on two things
1.The Harman Smith in the trailer is just some nobody masquerading as Harman Smith.
2. We have no clue who Young Harman Smith is, or what he's suppose to represent.
True Grave #3 [-]
Posts: 950
May 16 06 12:09 PM
Reply Quote
I see your points. I just wish I had a better understanding of who Dimitri Nightmare is and why he's significant. I guess it makes sense that he is the
second guy sitting with Harman Smith, and the Hand in Killer 7 says he is Harman's bodyguard. The only reason why I doubt this is because the final
pigeon letter says that Gagnon is with Harman Smith, and they are both waiting for Emir. Plus, he is totally and completely useless in the game, plot
wise, since he doesn't say a thing, nor is introducted to the player. Remember, Johnny is introduced by the pigeon letters. I'd rather believe its
Johnny Gagnon.
I still can't take the Hand in Killer 7 novel seriously. I see too many differences between the game, and the book that I guess came form the
information and plot of the game. Unless its backwards. One is the real story and the other is inspired by events and characters of the other story.
lepch1qosldnb #4 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 27 06 6:48 AM
Reply Quote
The plot faq also claims that Iwazaru's wife was actually Emir's mom.True Grave wrote:
I see your points. I just wish I had a better understanding of who Dimitri Nightmare is and why he's significant. I guess it makes
sense that he is the second guy sitting with Harman Smith, and the Hand in Killer 7 says he is Harman's bodyguard. The only
reason why I doubt this is because the final pigeon letter says that Gagnon is with Harman Smith, and they are both waiting for
Emir. Plus, he is totally and completely useless in the game, plot wise, since he doesn't say a thing, nor is introducted to the
player. Remember, Johnny is introduced by the pigeon letters. I'd rather believe its Johnny Gagnon.
I still can't take the Hand in Killer 7 novel seriously. I see too many differences between the game, and the book that I guess
came form the information and plot of the game. Unless its backwards. One is the real story and the other is inspired by events
and characters of the other story.
That just sounds way too far fetched for my taste. I'd rather follow the instructions that Shockley haynes wrote near the end of the faq. Which is
draw your own conclusions.
BTW Hand in killer 7 isn't a novel. It's more like a scrapbook/guidebook containing miscellaneous info.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... killer.htm
Check the gallery out. It looks more like a strategy guide rather than a novel.
If you notice the above trailers are exact replicas of the storyboards contained within
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... skecth.jpg
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... kecth1.jpg
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... killer.jpg
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... iller1.jpg
I've noticed a particular kind of behavior in various messageboards such as Gamefaqs,gamespot.
Where I see so many individuals that criticsize HIK 7 (Which is official,and is wrtitten by SUDA 51.) in favour of Shockley Haynes eloquently written
plot faq. (Which is mostly speculation.) The behavior most likely stems from the fact that people often like to stick with the product that they
knew first.
HIK 7 is basically the game that was originally in the making when K7 first started development.
~ In other words the game that we got was basically just a condensed rearranged version of the original story from HIK 7. If you look closely
enough both stories still have the same basic premise. Japan trying to survive as a nation & the U.S. trying to shut Japan up from spilling the
truth of the U.S. government. Hik 7 is more detailed & lets you know that Japan was destroyed in the end. The game due to time constraints
mixes & meshs several key themes & elements from the original story told in HIK 7. In the end both Hik 7 & the game leave the origins of Kun
Lan & Harman questionable at best. The only thing that is absolute is that they are in league with each other & both are working to achieve the
same purpose. Using they're own methods.
I believe that most of the info in HIK7 is still relevant to the game. Especially when you see the rundown of the current political organizations that
exist within Killer 7.
When they say that Dimitri Nightmare is Harman's bodyguard I believe they meant that in a figuretive sense.
Like I said Dimitri is supposed to be the 3rd eye.
He's probably meant to be just a symbolic humanoid presentation of the truth & nothing more.
K7 mixes sureality with reality almost constantly mainly,because that's exactly what the world of a madman (Emir/Garcian) looks like.
Most serial killers live in a world rife with dellusion which is why they are able to kill so casually with moral ambiquity.
Look at the bellhop. Hik 7 has his name listed as Edo Macalister.
(A character from FSR who sees & remembers all of the names of guests who stay at Hotel FSR. He's also dead,and happened to be a ghost. When
Garcian Smith meets Edo Macalister,Ed's theme music ~ a piano piece by Erik Satie plays in the background.)
For most of us outside of Japan that means nothing.
For those of us who have played Flower,Sun & Rain Edo Maclister's cameo meant that Garcian is about to awake from his dream & face the truth.
(The dream being his facade as the Killer 7. The truth being the appearance of Dimitri Nightmare. I have a more detailed explanation of Edo's cameo
in some other thread.)
Interesting enough "Awake from your dream" use to be the catch phrase for Killer 7 back when the game was still in it's beta stage.
Although the Killer 7 game never told you the name of the bellhop I think it's pretty safe to assume that he still served his purpose in the plot.
So just because Dimitri never says a word that doesn't mean that you could just rule him out of the game.
lepch1qosldnb #5 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 27 06 6:49 AM
Reply Quote
The problem with Killer 7 is that the games story is so open ended (Forces you to think) that we only see what we want to see or believe.
A detail that I have to point out about the story of K7 is that the more you know about politics & the way that the world operates behind the
scenes.
The more that you will be able to understand the story of Killer 7.
Check out this url.
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/signsguide.htm
It's full of terms that are relevant to the world of Killer 7.
Once y'all learn those terms & the meaning behind them I'm hoping that more peolpe will be able to see the Killer 7 plot that I see.
Everybody else can view that man sitting next to Harman as Johnny Gagnon
(Which IMO is a ridculous conclusion. Johnny is just a guy that relays intell about the K7. In the grand scheme of politics he's nothing more than a
worthless fly that's ready to be forgotten & swept under the rug. Whatever he knows is useless which explains why he was killed during a pigeon
letter & his existance in the world was soon erased. It's a basic government clean up op,& Young Harman does claim to be a governemnt agent so
you can fill the pieces in there.)
I choose to believe that Dimitri is just a human presentation of truth.
That's what a 3rd eye is. It enlightens the mind,body & soul.
Without the 3rd eye Garcian may have never broke out of the mind control that he has endured from the government.
The thing you may have not noticed yet about Johnny Gagnon is that he was put there to relay disinformation. He's a CoIntellPro agent.
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm
As far as I recall not once has Johnny Gagnon ever relayed any usefull info at all. Interesting perhaps,but not what I would consider relevant.
The only people/spirits in the whole game that you can trust without a shadow of a doubt are Travis & Iwazaru,because they never lie to you.
Even Chris Mills lies to you constantly in order to maintain Garcian's blind loyalty to the U.S. government.
On the other hand Travis & Iwazaru relay so much info all at one time that it's often a bit hard to decipher at first. Though everything they say does happen to be true for the world of Killer 7.
It seems to fly over most peoples heads,but propaganda is one of the main themes of Killer 7,and it's also used constantly.
It seems to me that people just don't want to believe that Garcian has actually been hallucinating the whole time.
The events in the game do indeed happen,but the way Garcian views the scenes & events were greatly exaggerated by his government programing.
In his mind. Emir may have thought that he's speaking to a disembodied head. In reality it was probably just a watermelon.
In Emir's mind he thinks that he committed suicide & shot himself.
In reality it was probably a lie implanted into his brain that is believed to be reality,because everybody believes it.
Note: Suda51 confirms that Emir really did shoot himself.
To further illustrate my viewpoint there's an excerpt in this link that had something to do with Cia agents implanting Multiple Personality's into
teenage girls. (Too bad I can't find it. I'll quote it when ever I come across it again.)
http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol10pg
The only things that remains true are that the Heaven Smiles are real & Garcian does in fact change into different bodies,persona,mind & souls of
the Killer 7.
mainly because that's an ability that he inherited from harman Smith.
One of the reasons why Emir was able to exist as Garcian for so long is because he was acting the exact way that he was programmed to by the
government.
If you listen to Linda Vermilion's speech carefully you can tell that she knew something about Garcian that he didn't.
She also knew that he was begining to reawaken.
Judging from this I guess I really do need to write my article for Emir,since I guess most folks still haven't noticed that he's a product of government
exploitation.
True Grave #6 [-]
You're not gonna want me to say this, but after watching the ending again, I'm still convinced the man sitting next to Young Harman Smith is not Dimitri Nightmare. He does not look like the character in HiK 7 book. Which is unfair because the character described as Dimitri in the book is
shown in a very small amount of room.
I do understand most of your points. And even before reading Hayes's plot faq I was able to understand that Garcian was hallucinating the entire
time. The case contained all the personalities guns, and when ever he used a specific gun he took on the mindset of that matching killer.
On a side note I read the plot faq by Hayes before I knew about HiK 7, which did lead me to HiK 7.
I also like the connection you made with Edo. I really wish the game had done a better job explaining him. But this is even more reason why I wish I
could play FSR. Now that I know more about Edo, its really cool that he is in K7. And I dont know if you have said this in another thread, but do you
think that Edo is linked to Kevin Smith?
I also want to ask you a question. Tell me all that you can. What parts of Killer 7 take place in reality?
lepch1qosldnb #7 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 31 06 3:59 AM
Reply Quote
Note: I have to bold out the links in this wall of text.
Edo & Kevin Smith are completely unrelated.
It's just a pointless cameo that some how makes sense when you think about it long enough.
Edo Macalister isn't even that important in FSR,except that
he re appears 4 or six chapters after his death in the FSR game.
Which help you realize that something about the "reality" within the Lospass island resort is really screwed up.
Since even you come back 4 or 6 chapters after you died as well.
(You control two detectives that have loose connections to Suda 51's "The Silver Affair" during the chapters where you happen to be dead.)
FSR & K7 have completly different themes the only thing they have in common is that they're both surreal & involve assassins.
K7 has more of an over the top violent pulp noir vibe going on,whereas FSR is more of a mystery/thriller about a tourist island resort.
One theme that both games share in common is "Kill the Past".
For K7 it refers to a man that either forgotten or blocked out his past. In FSR it refers to getting rid of the past to move on with the present.
I'm actually disapointed with the Edo cameo,because he doesn't really contribute much to the story.
The original FSR cameo was supposed to be Sundance.
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/?
wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gpara.com%2Fspecial%2Fsoft%2Ffsr%2Fr18.htm&submit=Translate&wb_dis=2&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_co=excitejapan
A character that would've really stirred things up in the world of K7.
He had a much bigger role in Killer 7 than Edo Macalister ever did.
He was in the beta trailer of K7
Sundance is the eye patch guy with the creepy vox that says "Awake from your dream."
I'm guessing they replaced his cameo in the game so Sundance won't end up becoming co owned by Capcom. Much similar to how Blair Dame from
Street Fighter Ex was deleted out of the series,because Arika wanted full rights to her character design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_Ja ... Blair_Dame
(Judging from that Kurayami interview that Emir posted up,I'm guessing that Suda 51 only has co rights to Killer 7.)
Another reason I believe is because Sundance would over shadow both Kun Lan & Harman Smith. Which would cheapen both of their (Harman &
Kun) characters.
Sundance is what I would like to describe as the Devil's Advocate.
He seems like a bad guy,but only has good intentions.
It's just the way he operates makes him seem like an unsavory guy.
(Sundance shoots you in the head and kills you in FSR. Course a later revelation in the game makes you realize that you were livng in past memories
of other individuals that had the same identity as you.)
Unfortunately Sundance's role in K7 seems to be written out of the K7 canon for both the game & HIK7.
I used to believe that Killer 7 & FSR took place in the same universe,but I'm not sure now,because K7 is property of capcom.
I'm interested in what you have to say about Dimitri nightmare.
Could you explain how they don't look like the same person
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... dsmile.jpg
Check the top left chart that lists all the identities/people that Garcian is currently involved with. (It's interesting that Linda Vermilion made it into
the chart.)
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.games ... dchart.jpg
Check out the young harman convo.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/dl.htm
They're wearing the same attire & have the same basic appearance IMO.
I honestly don't see a diff. between the two.
All the events in the game did occur it's just the way that it's presented to the player that happens to be exaggerated.
This is just speculation but when Garcian gets into the fight with Kurahashi & the other UN. guy. (The japanese guys that throw brains at you.)
I'm thinking that in reality Garcian was probably just dancing around with himself or doing some other crazy ish trying to dodge brains that weren't
really there,but when he regained conciousness and came to.
The Japanese politicians were already dead,because Matsuken killed them.
In Matsuken's pov he thought he saw Kun Lan & two guys with their brains blown off,but in reality it was probably just a discussion that was
ocurring within an astral reality.
The real world that Matsuken was in was nothing more than a room with two Japanese guys that he just killed.
(Which explains why the room was empty when Matsuken left the room.)
If there's one thing that I've noticed about Harman & Kun is that they only appear in celestial dimensions & or astral projections.
The only time you see a true solid figure of Harman Smith is through the safe. (I still have no idea about Young Harman.)
I don't think you ever see a solid figure of Kun Lan at all in the game.
Though HIK 7 claims that Kun Lan is an old man trapped inside an insane asylum.
That's the way I see it...
I wouldn't be able to tell you the exact instances anyway,because nothing is concrete in the final product of the game besides the politics.
It's more due to how horribly convoluted the story of K7 is.
(I assume the only reason that the game doesn't make sense is because much of the game was condensed & rearranged. Flower,Sun & Rain doesn't
have continuty problems like K7 does,and if it did it's certainly not to the magnitude of the contridictions that exist in Killer 7.
The pigeon letters alone have many contridictions contained in them.)
As much as most K7 fans wouldn't like to hear this...K7 is more or less the victim of poor planning & execution.
Possibly even censorship as well.
if this beta trailer
& the anime intro of K7 where a heaven smile bombs the us embassy are any indication i'm guessing that the heaven Smiles were originally meant to be normal humans that had a tranced look in their face,but was editted out,because they're suicide bombers.
Plus part-nah I think Dan Smith just capped the brains out of a nun in that trailer.
that's bound to cause controversy.
True Grave #8 [-]
Posts: 950
Jun 3 06 8:43 PM
Reply Quote
Wow, that beta trailer was awsome. I loved how Con had large Uzis instead of simple auto handguns. And I loved how Young Harman Smith was in it.
Looks like he might have played a bigger role.
Honestly I can also say that Kevin Smith was damn near useless. At least to the plot. I found myself playing as him because I felt sorry for the poor
sucker. It was cool having the ability to just run through traps and enemies. Plus the no-reload knives were cool.
And thanks to you I can't stop watching that water park commercial...
Plus your last post have driven me even more to play FSR.
lepch1qosldnb #9 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Jun 24 06 8:08 PM
Reply Quote
Man I still need to post a reply I just haven't had the time lately.
After visiting one of the sites linked on Akura's blog I saw an interesting banner at a fanart site.
I guess that Killer 7,FSR, & Silver Case/Affair really are related with each other.
http://www.interq.or.jp/blue/patriot/top.html
It's a sad shame I have a hard time locating a copy of Silver Case.
I'd like to see if that game had any reocurring characters & themes in K7 like FSR did.
True Grave #10 [-]
Posts: 950
Jun 25 06 5:57 PM
Reply Quote
I just wanna play all those games...
Guess I have to learn Japanese first.
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"
Akura #11 [-]
avatar
MPD Psycho
Posts: 503
Jun 26 06 1:12 AM
Pantzmaster
Reply Quote
Perhaps someday into the distant future they'll have a three-pack. Killer7, FSR and SC all in one. They did it with Silent Hill, why not with these
three GHM/Suda 51 games? My only peeve with the Silent Hill pack is that it didn't contain the first one. =/
True Grave #12 [-]
Posts: 950
Jun 26 06 7:45 PM
Reply Quote
I wanna know why SH3 didn't make it to the xbox? I mean it is a GH title on PS2. They could have given it the extra treatment like in SH2 restless
dreams. And have put it on the PS2 as a GH special edition.
I'd love to see a GHM three pack like that. The sad part is it will most likely never happen. I doubt any publisher will buy the rights, even Capcom.
