Killer7 SINdicate

I like the vincullum gate discussion,somehow the vinculum gate always stuck in my head.i wonder whats the point if it,each gate contain the midboss new Smile that killer7 have to face before proceed to another door that lead to the main Bosses .the boy also appear on each door to give the Killer7 the a hint of Smile's weakness.somehow in the Encounter chapter.there are 2 midboss that player have to fight, one of them is Ceramic Smile & player is not needed to get through vinculum gate to fight it.the boy still appear to give player a hint of it weaknesess.
Forgot to mention each stage inside of the vincullum gate midboss is similar to the stage that Killer7 is in the mission at the moment.i thought th whole thing about the vincullum gate is only happen in garcian's head but at the end it does exist but in Battleship island & the last door of the vincullum gate lead to Harman smith room & Garcian truck..which is confused me even harder because Garcian truck supposed to be in Suburb Seattle the place where Garcian stay & chill if he is not in the mission.

I want to thank our Archiver here for doing my job in my place, because I'm such a lazy fuck. He contacted me and the other admins via PM and I'm gonna give him access to the old forums to help him preserve older / valuable threads

If I can give you one suggestion I would split each thread you repost into a different one, maybe just label it as [ARCHIVE] before the title, so they're easier to navigate

Godspeed on your endavour

[b]Reposting - Underlying Meanings[/b]

Author Comment
ForumerDeletedUser Underlying Meanings Lead [-]
Posts: 0
Sep 6 05 7:08 PM
Reply Quote
TAGS : None

I've stickied this post as it has the potential to spark some intriqueing banther. I'd add
my thoughts,but I'm busy fixing the layout & adding content to the site,though I
would like to hear guest's opinions. -The topic starter-
(Feel free to register as a member if you've haven't already.
If I have too many individuals posting as guest this forum could become as confusing
as the game.)

lepch1qosldnb #1 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Feb 22 06 11:14 AM
Reply Quote

Well it's been about 5 months,and nobody has replied yet.
So allow I to explain my point of view.
I'll try to explain each theme one at a time.
When I first beat the game,I automatically assumed that the game was basically a
government cover up.
However Killer 7 is far more complicated than that.
First off I will start with politics,since most gamers I've seen on other boards always
seem to claim that Killer 7 would be better off without the polictical hoopla.
I disagree,because if you were to delete the political aspect away from K7.
All you would have left is a game about a series of random events that don't really
relate with one another at all.
Which is most likely the reason why most gamers are so confused with the story.
They spend too much time concentrating on Garcian's psycological demons that they
end up getting confused with what's actually going on.
Political arc
If you are aware of the current status quo of both Japan & the U.s.a than you would
also know that
Japan pretty much can't do anything too drastic without first getting the United
States consent on the matter.
The main conflict of Killer 7 is a geopolitical struggle that involves both Japan & the
U.S.A.
It began with feelings of apprehension when Toru Fukushima decided to annul the
United States Alliance,so
Japan could no longer be binded by the will of the United States.
In order for the country of Japan to grow,it first must be able to fend for herself.

However this move also sparked tension within the Liberal party of Japan.
Since Japan has no means of defense against a nuclear threat,they felt that
Fukushima was being careless
in his diplomatic decisions.
The Liberal party decide to have him assassinated.
It's around this time that nuclear missles were targetted toward Japan by an
unknown threat.
It's never specified where the trajectory originated from,but Suda51 himself has
labeled them as "The Eastern Threat",
(The collective will of Asia,including the nations of the East was targetted on Japan.)
If you are familiar with the current unstable geopolictical situation involving Japan &
her neighbors Korea,& China,
you will know exactly where Suda51 is going with the "Eastern threat" concept.
(If not,don't worry I am going to elaborate more on the "Eastern Threat" in a future
File 7 article.)
The United States spots the nuclear missles,since Japan is an ally some individuals
proposed that the U.S. unleash the "fireworks" beofre the nuclear missles detonate
on Japan.
However they can not act without the consent of the United States President.
The president refuses to make a move. Not until the evaluation of Japan's worth "true
test of Japan's value" has been reached.
Note: The true "test of Japan's value" for the U. S. Government was nothing more
than determining what benefit the U. S. would recieve from Japan's destruction.
If the U. S. had received fewer concessions and benefits from Japan's destruction,
the Fireworks are likely to have been launched.
If it weren't for Matsuken's intervention to unleash the "fireworks".
(I'm guessing that Matsuken used the political influence of the 10 million secret
Japanese members stretched across the globe.)
Japan most certainly would have been obliterated.
It is this very instance that fuels Matsuken's rage to destroy the United States.
To explain the political aspect in one sentance I would describe Killer 7
as a conflict about electoral fraud,& information warfare.
God v.s. Satan arc
I disagree with the whole God v.s Satan concept. I see it as more of a Yin & Yang
relationship.
Kun Lan & Harman can't exist without the other. They represent a balance of
opposite forces & energy.
Though if one were to go along with God v.s Satan concept it would be more
accurate to label Kun Lan as Lucifer "the Light bringer".
(Lucifer is not satan,and it has been noted that Lucifer is witty & has a sense of
humour similar to Kun Lans.)
Kun Lan isn't exactly evil,he's just another side of the coin. IMO Kun Lan represents
freedom,and with "freedom" comes "chaos" & anarchy. (Heaven Smile,they embody
chaos & anarchy,because they represent the invisible threat of terrorism that is
plaguing the world. They also kill & destroy at random. With no remorse.)
Harman on the other hand represents order & law,who unleashes divine retribution.
(Death from the Killer 7. They embody order simply,because they only kill who they
are contracted to eliminate.)
[b]
Personal arc (Garcian Smith)[/b]
Killer 7 is also a game about "entering the mind of an assassin".
Emir Parkreiner (Garcian Smith) is a man who is battling his inner demons.
He is a kid who was brought up under the influence of Coburn elementary to become
an assassin that
operates for Japan's interest. (In other words another one of the secret Japanese
members.)
Emir suffers from a psychological battle that began after the trauma he had endured
during the "Union hotel" murders.
He creates a fake persona as Garcian Smith to run away from his troubles.
In a way you could say that Garcian has "Killed the Past".
It's as if Emir Parkreiner has never existed.
The Killer 7 are a celestial manifestation that embody retribution from god (Harman
Smith)
Killer 7 coexist as Garcian partly as a figment of Garcian's subconcious. Garcian is also
the medium that is used to summon their personas into the 4th dimension.
(The plane of existence that we currently inhabit. The 4th dimension is time. The
other 3-D should be self explanatory.)
Throuh out the game you are left not knowing what the hell is going on,because
Garcian himself isn't completely there.
He suffers from dellusions,and is constantly haunted by spirits. (Iwazaru,Yoon
Hyun,Susie,Travis,every single target that you were sent to kill. Even some of his
former colleagues come to visit Garcian in the after life.)
Garcian's mental stability is in shambles yet he does not know it.
It's not until the death & rape of Samantha that Garcian's imaginary world starts to
crumble.
He no longer sees the master,Harman Smith.
This escalates further with the assassination of Christopher Mills at the hands ofLinda Vermillion.
Linda,Matsuken,Young Harman Smith,they all are aware of Garcian's condition,but
refuse to tell him,and want him to find out on his own.
(Chris was going to explain everything to Garcian before he got shot fuill of lead.)
At Coburn Elementary the pieces start to fit together.
It appears that a kid named Emir Parkreiner has a faked biological record,and was
possibly taken in by the "government"
(Which government the U.S.A. or Japan I'm not sure.)
He then discovers that Harman Smith,the man he thought he knew has been dead for
years.
Memories of a supressed past that Garcian long ago had sealed off,are starting to
surface.
(This is when Garcians 3rd eye begins to bleed open. It's also a physical metaphor of
saying "The truth hurts.")
Which basically leads up to the deaths of the celestial Killer 7. (They are being
eliminated from Garcians subconcious as they are no longer needed,and only the real
person Emir Parkreiner can destroy the demons that plague Garcian's mind.
When Garcian visits the Union Hotel he is then visited by a paranormal spirit from an
earlier Suda51 game called "Flower,Sun,& Rain".
The bellhop who greets Garcian is known as Edo Macalister,his appearance in Killer 7
is symbolic in the sense that Garcian's past is finally catching up with him.
(Edo Macalister is from an Island resort called Lospass where the past ceases to exist.
It is a fictional reality created to be a personal paradise.)
Soon after Garcian begins to recollect memories of old involving the murders of 6
random individuals,who were currently staying at the Union Hotel.
Amongst them were some members of the Killer 7.
Garcian later meets Young Harman Smith,who basically tells Garcian that "HE IS"
Harman Smith.
The man that Garcian has sworn loyalty to. Harman tells Garcian that he is an assassin
that is employed by the United States government.
Due to the ease & viciousness of the Union Hotel murders Harman decides to take
Garcian under his care.
Not long after that Garcian kills the remaining demons from his mind. (Harman Smith &
Kun Lan.)
In other words he erases his conciense.
On the rooftop an afterimage of the past in the form of Emir Parkreiner appears.
Garcian shoots the afterimage by aiming directly at the 3rd eye.
Finally Garcian has broken all the chains that shielded him from his gritty reality,and
once again resumes the identity of the bloodthirsty killer
"The Bloody Heartland",Emir Parkreiner.

[b]Who is Harman Smith?[/b]
Harman Smith was at one time or another a real breathing,living individual who
happened to be the principal of Coburn Elemnatary during Garcian's enrollment at
the institute.
Young Harman Smith is the same Harman Smith when he was younger.
It must be noted that the actual "Young Harman Smith" that Garcian saw during the
"Union Hotel murders"
was most likely a government official,or a secret agent of the U.S. government posing
as "Harman Smith" who simply wished to utilize a child prodigy such as Garcian for the
use of the U.S.A.
In order to capitialize on Garcian's current state of mind.
(Due to the traumatic shock that Garcian endured during the "Union Hotel murders"
His mental condition see's Harman as an athoritive figure.)
"Young Harman" created & or brainwashed
Garcian into believeing that he was a member of the infamous Killer 7.
It's also around this time that the celestial manifestation began to materialize as
seperate personas of Garcians subconcious.
From that point on,all those around Garcian,maintained the false reality that Garcian
had made.
If they didn't they could have most likely ended up as another statistic like
Christopher Mills.
The celestial Harman Smith is just a human form of the energy known as Law,or God.
Kun Lan is the human form of chaos.
What I'm trying to say is that Harman Smith is to Emir,as "Travis" is to Fight Club.
(Shit Ima have to rewrite some of this ish,and include it in Emir Parkreiners File 7
page.)


Jedilink #2 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Mar 18 06 10:11 AM
Forum Administrator

ummm...wow ! I kept trying to read different things on this game and it never
made sense. I tried reading the script thing from Gamespot but it was an in-depth
plot analysis and so it's already complicated from the start. See I'm doing a speech on
this game in my speech class and the problem is that you can't explain this game to
anyone without revealing the ending completely . The only way of knowing
Garcian created these personalities (NOT Harman) is to finish the game and see it for
yourself! I loved the imagery and I'm going to really have to look into that kinda stuff
even more. One thing I was wondering though was ...why/how does the place
Garcian visits on the island at the end of the game immediately become a collection
of all the places we visit during the game? I don't know anything else I can really ask
of this matter at the moment, but I really want to know what is going on ....


lepch1qosldnb #3 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Mar 19 06 10:03 AM
Reply Quote
[quote]Jedilink wrote:
ummm...wow ! I kept trying to read different things on this
game and it never made sense. I tried reading the script thing from
Gamespot but it was an in-depth plot analysis and so it's already
complicated from the start.[/quote]

It should be noted that the plot faq is not the end all,be all of the Killer 7 mythos. It's
merely his interpretation.
The writer of the faq even points it out several times during his writing.
(With all due respect I admire his work simply,because it's so well written.)
I'll just add that ShockleyHayne's plot faq is a nice place to start looking for answers
on what is actually going on in Killer 7,but certain portions of the faq should be
taken with a grain of salt.

[quote]See I'm doing a speech on this game in my speech class and the
problem is that you can't explain this game to anyone without
revealing the ending completely . The only way of knowing
Garcian created these personalities (NOT Harman) is to finish the
game and see it for yourself![/quote]

If we want to get technical,you can say that it was actually Harman Smith who
created Garcian.
http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/adilegian/HAND_IN_KILLER7.txt
http://www.sitesled.com/members/killer7/class.html
You may want to center your speech around the human psyche,and how we have a
tendency to run away from our problems & fears
Sometimes even creating new realities within our own sphere of influence.
Garcian has what we call Disassociative Identity Disorder
http://www.sidran.org/didbr.html
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/5368
DID usually occurs to individuals who have just suffered a traumatic event in their
life,and wish to block it out.

[b]One thing I was wondering though was ...why/how does the
place Garcian visits on the island at the end of the game
immediately become a collection of all the places we visit during
the game?[/b]

Here's Suda51's answer that I ripped from the bradygames strategy guide.
SUDA51
A: The battleship Island in "Lion" Scenario is spiritually connected to the Trailer
House where Harman Smith lives.
The Kihan Gate also is one side of Harman's consciousness and, because if the
strength of the spiritual bond, the battleship island is derived as the center (hub).
The Kihan Gate is Kun Lan's imaginary place, his studio,and also the manufacturing
facility.
The Eastern powers use the catalyst known as the kihan Gate and are giving birth to
a terror threat...it is related to this fact.
My interpretation
What Suda is trying to explain is that battleship island,and the Vinculum gate are both
opposing energies that represent Harman's consciousness.
The energies serve as a balance of power called tranquility.
---
As for my reaction,I just ignore these parts of the game,as they're nothing more than
physical presentations of Garcian's state of mind.
In other words he's a man still fighting his inner demons,and what Garcian sees may
not be the same reality that everybody else may see.
All that really needs to be known is that Garcian is another pawn of the government
that some how broke free from the system when he discovered that he's been living a
lie.
Choosing to dwell too much on what these images & random events are suppose to
represent will only drive you crazy.
Coincidentally this is how lunatics,psychos,& madmen are created.
They couldn't make sense of anything around them,so therefore it drove them crazy.
Killer 7 succeeds at painting the picture of what some individuals that have lost their
mind go through on almost a daily basis.
NOTE: Sometimes I wish I chosed a simpler game to do a fansite out of,because I
always have to do all this goddamn research just to write about several ideas &
themes concerning this game.
All the work I put into this website simply isn't worth it,because this site is not
popular at all.
Than again it's the very themes & ideas that makes Killer 7 so intriquing in the first
place.
(We all know it's not the gameplay.)


Jedilink #4 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Mar 20 06 11:46 AM
Forum Administrator
Reply Quote

Well, the Vinculum Gate is just a connection of two ideas to bring them together.
How exactly this connection comes into play isn't really explained (I mean the
connection of the place I'm just in to some weird place, then back to where I
was?...it doesn't always flow logically ). The thing I was trying to get was that when
you finally CAN get some sort of grasp of the storyline, the game is over and you have
to play through again to fully get it. I'm doing a persuasive speech in my class so I'm
doing it on why videogames SHOULD be considered an art form. This is the only game
(I don't know if I should REALLY admit this...) to make me cry at the ending. Not
because it was sad but because it was so frickin sweet (I'm weird then I guess
). And so if something like this can affect me so much then how can it not be an art
form? Roger Ebert says games are not art. And While I trust his judgement on movies
(more often than not) who's he to say what art is and isn't? I found this game to be
more affecting than any other games of the year (even though Resident Evil 4 was
actually a much better GAME). Well, I should get back to researching this game


lepch1qosldnb #5 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Mar 22 06 7:30 AM
Reply Quote

What about MGS 3? That game also had an ending that made most gamers cry.
How refreshing,it's about time we finally get a poster such as yourself. You ask real
questions that have I thinking as well.
Usually when I see fan communities of Killer 7,all the messages are polluted with
endless fanboy/girl worship about how much they love Killer 7.
[quote]Well, the Vinculum Gate is just a connection of two ideas to bring
them together. How exactly this connection comes into play isn't
really explained (I mean the connection of the place I'm just in to
some weird place, then back to where I was?...it doesn't always
flow logically ).[/quote]
It's post modern,meaning there is no definitive answer,and is meant to be open
ended for endlesss speculation.
I choose to view it as visions of a madman who doesn't see the world as clearly as he
should.
It should also be noted that the majority of the original story that was planned for
Killer 7 was cut out during the process.
The most noticeable omission was that Sundance from Flower Sun & Rain was
originally one of the key characters for K7.
Sundance (Sandance) from Flower,Sun & Rain
http://www.gpara.com/special/soft/fsr/r18.htm
Sundance in a storyboard of the prototype K7 trailer
http://www.sitesled.com/members/killer7/hand/prototypekiller.jpeg
http://www.sitesled.com/members/killer7/hand/prototypekiller1.jpeg
I had a whole page full of beta material that didn't make it to the final K7 product,but
unfortunately they were located in my hard drive that died a couple weeks ago. (The
pc that I am currently using is a government owned Dell.)
Here's some pages from Hand in Killer 7 containing the original story boards of the
2003 early 2004 K7 trailers.
http://www.sitesled.com/members/killer7/hand/preskecth.jpeg
http://www.sitesled.com/members/killer7/hand/preskecth1.jpeg
In a way I feel that Killer 7 is full of wasted potential.
The inclusion of Sundance from Flower,Sun & Rain would've made this game even
more crazy then it currently is.

[quote]Jedilink wrote:
Roger Ebert says games are not art. And While I trust his judgement
on movies (more often than not) who's he to say what art is and
isn't? I found this game to be more affecting than any other games
of the year (even though Resident Evil 4 was actually a much better
GAME). Well, I should get back to researching this game[/quote]

There's a whole discussion about Roger Ebert at the Junker HQ forums.
http://forums.junkerhq.net/viewtopic.php?t=717
The sad thing is in general games really haven't earned the right to be considered
art.
Games such as Halo,GTA,God of War,Devil May Cry don't have much meaning.
The main problem video games have is they don't really have an audience to tell their
stories to.
Except Hideo Kojima,although his earlier games Metal Gear 2 (The msx
game),Snatcher & Policenauts had much better writing than his MGS series.
Every time a game comes out that actually has a story with substance,and artistic
merit such as Deus Ex,Legacy of Kain series,Planescape Torment,Persona 2 Eternal
Punishemnt,Shin Megami Tensei,etc. they all pretty much get ignored by the masses.
My guess is because the themes & ideas present within these games go over the
majority of the gaming audiences heads.
Killer 7 is no exception.
While Killer 7,didn't make I cry,it did intimidate moi a bit,because of the
creativty,style,& originality that Killer 7 exudes. (Damn I wish I had a spell checker.)
The only other game of 2005 that I can think of that had a story that was more
impactful than K7 would have to be Sega's Ryu ga Gotoku (Be like a Dragon) which is
being shipped to the U.S. later on this year as "Yakuza"
(I own the import.)
Unlike Killer 7 that game had a clear narrative,than again it wasn't trying to be post
modern either.
I agree with you about the comment regarding RE 4. Hell IMO Killer 7 would've been
more enjoyable if it had the same fun factor as RE 4.
BTW Nice avatar.


Jedilink #6 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Mar 25 06 2:09 AM
Forum Administrator
Reply Quote

Oh, hehe my avatar is Liz Phair man...LIZ PHAIR IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!! Awesome
music...not for everyone, but I love her to death! I mostly listen to heavy metal,
but...she doesn't go over too well with my metalhead buddies though


Jedilink #7 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Mar 25 06 2:16 AM
Forum Administrator
Reply Quote

Ugh, I totally ignored everything else . Yeah I heard about "Ryu ga Gotoku". I'd love
to see some Yakuza games here in the states...but I only have a Gamecube ...
wait I should be happy, Gamecube is awesome! Oh and people always seem to
forget about a little gem that came out in 2003 called "Beyond Good and
Evil"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No one played that game!!!!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!!? I love it! The game is about a corrupt government and you have to
gather evidence and put the evidence out to the public to expose how evil the
government is. Anyone who hasn't played this game should go buy it NOW! It's only
$20 now so it's not expensive...wait maybe I should talk about this in another room

True Grave #8 [-]
Does anyone here have an interpretation of what happened with Kun Lan at the end
of Alter Ego?
My take is the whole match up between the Smiths and the Handsome Men was set
as a match up between Emir and Kun Lan on a video game. It looks like Kun Lan puts a
controller down at the end of that scene, or something like that.
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"


Jedilink #9 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Mar 25 06 10:41 PM
Forum Administrator
Reply Quote

Good observation, I'll have to check that part out.


True Grave #10 [-]
Posts: 950
Mar 26 06 11:29 AM
Reply Quote

One of the things I love about the game is all the symbolism in it. Especially the whole
good vs evil/white vs. balck themes. You could even view the enitre plot as a large
chess game. After all Kun and Harman love chess.
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"


RedNinja #11 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 135
Jul 23 06 10:54 AM
K7 SIN MOD

Reply Quote
[quote]True Grave wrote:
One of the things I love about the game is all the symbolism in it.
Especially the whole good vs evil/white vs. balck themes. You could
even view the enitre plot as a large chess game. After all Kun and
Harman love chess.[/quote]

In my opinion, chess is the most important metaphor in the game. Not only does it
support all of the 'VS' themes(Good and Evil, East and West, etc.) through the black
and white pieces, but it's also important to the themes associated with war. (It's
inevitablility, it's sacrifices, etc.)
But the coolest, and most important, aspect is that the game is played regularly by
Harman and Kun Lan, two good, old friends.


Fredrick2003 #12 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 60
Sep 22 06 7:19 PM
Reply Quote

This game is just soo... its just so OOOOO <3<3<3<3<3!!! You know? The best game to
come out that year.
About that "games as art" debate, not very many games can be considered art sadly...
And the ones that are no one is interested in... Cant get any of my friends to play
Killer 7... Cant get any people I talk to online interested in it either... Maybe its
better this way though, we have like our own secret game and such.
The plot is so complex. To be honest, im still noticing things when I go threw the
game that I didn't pick up on the first time through.


True Grave #13 [-]
Yeah me too. I got one of my buddies the game when his b-day came out (January)
and he hasn't bothered to get past Episode 2. I mean I kept buggin him, but he also
sold his PS2 during the early months, and since his modded his Xbox he hasn't
touched the game.
BUt now he got his PS2 back and is going to try after K7 again.
I am careful who I reccomend the game to at work. I usually give em the third degree
on it. I want to make sure its bought because they want to play it, not just because
its so cheap now. i'm very particular as to whom I reccomend it to.
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"


Jedilink #14 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Sep 25 06 9:26 PM
Forum Administrator
Reply Quote

My friend and I used to be BIG Nintendo guys but ever since his girlfriend got him an
Xbox a couple years back he WILL NOT touch his Gamecube AT ALL and the only
reason he's getting a Wii is because it's gonna have Zelda on it.
He says Nintendo should stop making hardware and let Microsoft do all the
work.....right and then Japan won't support anything since they'll all flock to the PS2
anyway. Besides the Wii is the ONLY next gen console that is TRYING to do something
new! Everyone else is just doing more of the same but with more powerful hardware
is all! I recommend K7 to everyone! I tell em how crazy it is though if they seem
interested in it though. However, I don't think ANYONE has tried it after I've told em
*weeps greatly*. This is one game that people SHOULD play!!!!!! And I haven't been
playing it lately! I don't know why, I mean I'm not playing anything else really! I'm
gonna get started with it again! This game MUST be played! *wets pants at the
thought of the awesomeness of how Heroes is gonna be* Whew! Good thing I had
some diapers on for that one!


BobTheDarkOne #15 [-]
Posts: 572
Sep 26 06 4:10 AM
The Hellion
Reply Quote

Just tell his gf that the wiimote makes a good dildo.
Also I hope Somebody from the Killer7(mostly Dan) makes a cameo in heroes. I mean
nintendo and square fanboys ALWAYS gets truckloads of fanservice, so why shouln't
we?
Oh and for those who thinks fanservice is just porn, well you're right to an extent...
But it also means cameos!


MoosemanUK #16 [-]
Posts: 1
Oct 17 06 2:04 PM
Reply Quote
Is it me or does Andrei Ulmeyda look like a traumanaut?
Google david huffman.
And maybe he might just be a 70's blaxploitation version of
Robert (Bob)Dobb
Hello


lepch1qosldnb #17 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Nov 29 06 2:52 AM
Reply Quote
BobTheDarkOne wrote:
[quote]Also I hope Somebody from the Killer7(mostly Dan) makes a cameo in
heroes. I mean nintendo and square fanboys ALWAYS gets
truckloads of fanservice, so why shouln't we?
Oh and for those who thinks fanservice is just porn, well you're
right to an extent... But it also means cameos![/quote]
Won't happen. Dan Smith is a capcom owned character.
Suda 51 has co rights to Killer 7,but he can't do anything with it without consent
from capcom.
That's probably the main reason why all the Silver Case characters were removed out
of K7.
I'm mainly referring to Sundance from the K7 beta trailers.
Who would've been a character that's as mysterious as Kun Lan & Harman Smith.
(Except he's actually human, & not some celestial entity.)
If Suda had left Sundance in the game, Sundance would've became a capcom
character as well.
A similar pratice has occurred with Blair Dame & Allen Snyder from Street Fighter EX.
In order for Arika to maintain full control of Blair Dame & Allen they had to delete
them from the Street Fighter EX roster.
The reason why Ed Macalister from FSR is used in Killer 7 is because he's no longer
relevant to the story of the Silver Case.
Not that it matters, Edo did nothing but make a symbolic cameo for K7.
(Unlike Sundance who seemed to be manipulating Harman & the K7 in the Beta
trailer.)

True Grave #18 [-]
Posts: 950
Nov 29 06 2:27 PM
Reply Quote

Yeah but the only people who understand that the Union Hotel attendant is Ed are
the folks in this forum or who live in Japan and have played FSR.
Capcom didn't care cuz no American gamer would catch that until a forum like this
came out!
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"


BobTheDarkOne #19 [-]
Posts: 572
Nov 29 06 4:52 PM
The Hellion
Reply Quote

[quote]Topdrunkee thy ILLnifique wrote:
Won't happen. Dan Smith is a capcom owned character.Suda 51 has
co rights to Killer 7,but he can't do anything with it without
consent from capcom.[/quote]
/Cuts wrists.
HOW LAME. Though would it be a possibilty if they like, asked them or something?
They could just credit them and (maybe) give them a small sum of monies.


Jedilink #20 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Nov 30 06 1:19 AM
Forum Administrator
Reply Quote

Well if Capcom distributes Heroes then it IS a possibility that at least one K7
character could appear. I just think that even though the K7 characters are "capcom
owned" since it's a Grasshopper product they should be allowed to use their
characters how they want (at least in cameos for other games or something anyway,
not like sell a game with Dan Smith as the main guy or something). In Tony Hawk 4
they had Boba Fett (or was it Jango?) and that's an Activision game, well Neversoft.
But Lucasarts owns the Star Wars liscense. You can sort of "rent out" characters
and things for games if you want to put in yours.
It's like putting pre-existing songs into a movie. You pay a royalty and you can use the
song in your film. I've seen it in other games so I know they CAN do it. Hopefully
there's some K7 in Heroes. But either way, it's gonna be amazing. I'm going crazy
waiting for it....OH!!!!!!!! They should be putting up a new trailer and screenshots
soon! I almost forgot! I think they said December!!!! YIPPEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[b]Reposting - What do you guys think?(spoilers)
[/b]

Author Comment
BobTheDarkOne What do you guys think?(spoilers) Lead [-]
Posts: 572
Sep 8 06 12:59 PM
The Hellion
Reply Quote
TAGS : None

So ever since I've finished the game I've had a question bothering me but for some
reason i always forgot about it when i came here.
So anyway do you guys think that during the game the personalities were acting on
their own or it was Garcian pretending to be them?

True Grave #1 [-]
Posts: 950
Sep 8 06 5:16 PM
Reply Quote

Garcian pretending to be them. Inside his long suitcase is each personalitie's weapon.
Essentially you change personas by changing weapons. But Garcian also seems to have
the ability to take on their look, or something like that because after all, Curtis saw
Dan, and Jean De Paul saw Mask De Smith etc...
Its also by my understanding that each personality did exist prior to when they were
taken over by Garcian.
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"

Lisker #2 [-]
avatar
Posts: 1830
Sep 8 06 6:45 PM
Took money from Jack Abramoff
Reply Quote

I honestly don't know what I think anymore...

ConSmithsAngel #3 [-]
I think maybe,somehow they were ghosts,and which when they were summoned,they
were able to be seen by the public,which would explain how Jean de Paul could see
Mask.Also Jean mentions,that he used to watch Mask when he was just a kid but he
could be no less then 27,but if you do the math,you'd know that wouldn't add
up,which is why I really think they are ghosts,besides them getting killed many years
ago,and if you think about it,Garcian died also,but he could possibly be a lost spirit
or something like that,and Harman (I assume) is supposed to represent God,right?
Which he is sent out to do these jobs for him,kinda like how an angel does deeds to
get their wings,they also can talk to ghosts and understand every word they say....
Woah,It's the Handsome men,Awsome!!


True Grave #4 [-]
Posts: 950
Sep 14 06 8:08 PM
Reply Quote

Garcian did die, but it was Harman Smith who saw his ability to be immortal, like
himself. Heh, dont ask me which Harman though...
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"


lepch1qosldnb #5 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Sep 22 06 1:11 PM
Reply Quote

I don't agree with that immortal biz.
It sounds too video gamey & requires too much suspension of belief.
From what I've seen in Flower,Sun & Rain, Suda 51 is more of a conspiracy/mystery
adventure game type of writer.
The reason why Emir's birth date doesn't sound plausible is because his file has been
altered by somebody within the government.
(Which "government" is anybodies guess.
In the U.S. version,Emir has a profile that is vastly different from his records in the
Japanese version. In Japan he came from Vegas, I forget where Emir was born in the
U.S. game.)
Emir Parkreiner is not Garcian Smith. They are seperate entities.
They may look the same,but their personalities are vastly different.
Emir is a killer, Garcian is a cleaner.
[quote]ConSmithsAngel wrote:
I think maybe,somehow they were ghosts,and which when they
were summoned,they were able to be seen by the public,which
would explain how Jean de Paul could see Mask.Also Jean
mentions,that he used to watch Mask when he was just a kid but
he could be no less then 27,but if you do the math,you'd know that
wouldn't add up,which is why I really think they are ghosts,besides
them getting killed many years ago,and if you think about it,Garcian
died also,but he could possibly be a lost spirit or something like
that,and Harman (I assume) is supposed to represent God,right?
Which he is sent out to do these jobs for him,kinda like how an
angel does deeds to get their wings,they also can talk to ghosts
and understand every word they say....[/quote]

I like your theory, it makes a lot of sense, & you must've put a lot of thought into it.
IMO I think it was a mixture of Garcian pretending to be them & them (K7) actually
being individual entities.
When Killer 7 was originally conceived (Hand in Killer 7)
The Killer 7 were suppose to be personae that Harman Smith absorbs into his
concious where he maintains & controls them.
Harman can morph into the other personae that all exist parralel with each other.
The identities of the personae each have their own identity & personality intact from
when they were still alive.
Garcian Smith is Harman Smith's first persona that he absorbed into his conciousness.
This ability that Harman has is called the "Multifoliate Personae Phenomenon".
[quote](1) He can only absorb corpses that meet unknown requirements
for compatibility.
(2) When Harman's consciousness recognizes that a corpse is
compatible with Harman, the corpse transforms into thousands
of small particles, which Harman's body absorbs.
(3) Incredibly, the absorbed body exists within Harman--with its
own personality completely intact!
(4) When a persona becomes manifested, Harman's physical form
changes completely, Harman's mental qualities change, too,
adopting the total personality associated with the body[/quote]

This is where it gets interesting, Emir Parkreiner on the other hand
has a Disassociative Identity Disorder.
http://www.cmhawrb.on.ca/disassociation.htm
The above link accurately describes just about everything that Emir has done or did
during the whole game.

[quote]What Causes Disassociative Identity Disorder?
Multiple personalities are formed through dissociation.
Dissociation occurs when an individual splits with their primary
personality (also known as the "host" personality) and develops a
secondary personality in their subconscious. The dissociative
splitting of the self into two or more personalities usually occurs
in childhood due to extreme physical, sexual and/or psychological
abuse. In most cases the existence of Disassociative Identity
Disorder represents an attempt by the child to deal with
overwhelmingly negative events in their life. The ongoing abuse
experienced by the child somehow increases their capacity to
detach themselves, compartmentalizing life’s trauma into
autonomous units rather than a blended whole. When a
particularly abusive experience becomes unbearable the highly
hypnotizable child simply exercises their capacity for selfhypnosis,
to go to sleep, as it were, and allow another person to
emerge who can handle the situation better. In many ways the
altered personality of abused children resemble the imaginary
friends that "normal" children describe—externalized versions of
cartoon figures, superheroes or animals; however, what begins as a
protective fantasy is kept within until the individual with
Disassociative Identity Disorder becomes that character.[/quote]

That "other person that emerged" for Emir Parkreiner was "Harman Smith"
Who's the real Harman Smith is anyones guess.
It's safe to say that the reason Harman Smith is presented as a god like figure is
because in Emir's mind he is.
A man that claims to be Harman Smith adopted Emir after meeting him at the rooftop
of the union hotel.
It's in my opinion that this is the part of Emir's life, where Emir gets hypnotized & has
thoughts, foreign from his own inserted into his head.
(This is when Harman implants the Garcian Smith personality into Emir.)
but hold up didn't Emir just kill Harman Smith at the principal's office?
The way I see it the principal was either an alias or the real Harman Smith.
Young Harman is a government agent that pretends to be Harman Smith or is in fact
the real Harman Smith.
The celestial Harman Smith is just a human form of a god or god in Emir Parkreiner's
vision.
The wheelchair Harman Smith at Emir's trailer is either a random old guy dressed up
like Harman Smith or is in fact the real Harman Smith.
Basically since Harman Smith (Principal) was Emir Parkreiner's mentor , and Young
Harman Smith was the man that took him in after Emir's psychological breakdown, to
Emir the world basically begins & ends with a man named Harman Smith.
[quote]
Auditory or visual hallucinations (Susie,Iwazaru,Yoon
Hyun,Travis,etc.)
Sense that one’s body is being transformed or changed
(The Smith Syndicate)
Feeling like one is in a daze—going into a trance
(Viniculum gate)
Feelings of confusion and/or disorientation
Feeling one’s thoughts are out of control
Vocalizing words one did not think or utter
(All of the above are the same basic feelings most people feel when
they first play Killer 7,and are actually getting into it. Since you are
controlling Emir. What you feel is what he feels.)
Difficulty understanding others
(Most individuals have a hard time understanding what the
characters in Killer 7 are actually talking about. The K7 comic is a
pretty good example of this. No I'm not trying to insult the
comic,but come on they actualy thought that the Yakumo "rising
wind party" was a militant organization formed by survivors from Iwo
Jima.
The Yakumo were not mere soldiers they were politicians that
splintered off from the Japanese Liberal party & went rogue to
form an extremist right wing organization that went on to develop
the "Yakumo" idealogy. Sure you can fight a couple of wars with a
bunch of heavily armed soldiers,but the threat is only fleeting. On
the other hand influential groups of like minded individuals can
change the world with their doctrines & beliefs. By shaping the
minds of the future -The children- with the teachings of the
"Yakumo")
Depression
Multiple suicide attempts
(Emir shooting himself in the mouth.)
Severe anxiety attacks and/or numerous phobias
An inability to maintain stable relationships
(Seemingly Chris Mills was pratically his only friend. Samantha was
only there for monetary gain.)
Physically damaging acts such as cutting oneself
(Kaede Smith when she uses her special ability.)
Due to the various debilitating symptoms, the "host" personality
gets to a point where they feel they need to get some kind of
help.
(When Chris Mills speaks to Garcian Smith during the Union Hotel
levels,it sounds like he's trying to console Garcian from whatever
sadness that he maybe feeling. However we never find out what
Mills has been alludeing to until you beat the Union Hotel stage.)[/quote]

The difference between Harman & Emir is that Harman's personae all exist as
seperate entities & Harman Smith is recognized as the dominant personality.
Emir on the other hand has all his personalities stacked up one after another like a
deck of cards.
With his original personality being at the very bottom. Buried beneath the rest of the
Smith personae.
Harman is fully in control of his abilities whereas Garcian has a whacked out case of
Disassociative Identity Disorder.
What makes Emir's case so special is that Garcian Smith was originally one of Harman
Smith's personae.
note: Garcian is also Harman's first absorbed persona
(The Garcian Smith persona was probably transplanted into Emir's mind after being
adopted by the "Young Harman Smith". The mobster/fedora wearing Harman claims to
be a government agent so he would have the capabilities needed to brainwash
someone thoroughly.)
Therefore allowing Emir to tap into Harman Smith's "Multifoliate Personae
Phenomenon" ability. Which means the Garcian Smith persona allowed Emir the
power to transform into his other personas & be able to acquire their abilities &
personalities at the same time.
If Garcian Smith did not exist than Emir would not be able to morph into his other
personalities.
He would just be a normal psycho path that has a Disassociative Identity Disorder.
(During the last level he can not change shape,because he finally broke the hypnosis
that lead him to believe that he was Garcian Smith)
I have this ish written up in the confidential page of the website though not as
detailed as this post.
I could see why nobody reads it.
(This site looks horrible on Firefox,blame microsoft frontpage for that.
The K7 Sin sitesled.com page displays correctly,but the gamespy page looks
horrible,because I had to upload it with front page.)
I really need to get Emir's & Matsuken's File 7 articles up sometime.
Even though nobody ever reads them.


Lisker #6 [-]
avatar
Posts: 1830
Sep 22 06 1:37 PM
Took money from Jack Abramoff
Reply Quote

[quote]
In Japan he came from Vegas, I forget where Emir was born in the
U.S. game.)[/quote]
Alabama, I think. Don't know why they changed it.


lepch1qosldnb #7 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Sep 22 06 1:57 PM
Reply Quote

I once heard in gamefaqs that Emir's profiles were deliberately different for U.S. &
Japan,because it was another way to express the propaganda theme in Killer 7,and
how governements can get you to believe falseified documents as fact.
I'm not sure if that's true or not,but it makes a lot of sense, & it directly coincides
with the political themes of K7.
If only gamefaqs didn't erase all their damn posts.
(It was posted back in the days when Shockley Haynes was writing up his plot faq.)
Judging from what I see in Hand in Killer 7 & the game.
Killer 7 was probably suppose to be a story that began with Harman Smith & ended
with Emir Parkreiner. Unfortunately for all of us the game only contains Emir's portion
of the story,leaving some of the most important details about Harman Smith such as
his "Multifoliate Personae Phenomenon ability" in HIK 7, & the lilttle detail that
Garcian Smith is an identity that was originaly derived from Harman Smith.
(I think even I neglected to mention that in the website.)
The Multifoliate Personae Phenomenon is the key that makes Emir's dissociative
identity disorder so unnatural.
Much of Emir Parkreiner's disorder is hard to explain unless you are aware of the
background of Dissociative Identity Disorder.
In order to get a a case of DID as severe as Emir's he would have at one time or
another been hypnotized by an outside party(most likely Harman Smith or a Harman
impostor that was fully aware of Emir's background.) during some point in his life.


True Grave #8 [-]
Posts: 950
Sep 25 06 7:21 PM
Reply Quote

I'm in a psych class right now, and my mom is a psychiatrist so I can ask some
questions here on DID. I think my mom treated someone with DID once...I'll get back
to you on that.
The causes for DID do include experiencing a horrible event, being sexually abused
when young, etc. Emir shows all this in spades, from Kun's speech about him. Its
important to note that in DID the persona is created to deal with the trauma the real
person experienced. The persona shields everything from the real person. Each
persona that Garcian has pretty much protected him from everything up till the end.
Dan dealt with Curtis, and Treavor, Wheelchair Harman deals with Kun, and Mask
dealt with Jean De Paul. The other people like Ulymeida, and Julia can be dealt by
any persona, it doesnt matter.
This can explain why Garcian is almost never played as. You can't select him from the
main persona menu, you have to pick him from a different source. And when you do
he is the weakest persona out of them all, until he gets the Golden gun, but by then
the personas are dead.
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"


Jedilink #9 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 1866
Sep 25 06 9:36 PM
Forum Administrator
Reply Quote

Well since he is able to control them all he wouldn't be the one to fight them. I mean
when you play as him if you die you are done with the game. Game over for you. So
when you play as someone else he controls it's easy for him to just observe things as
Garcian since he can just come back to life by himself which sometimes makes me
wonder if the Heaven Smiles actually exist anyway if only Garcian (as the K7) can see
em! Anyone else who knows about em is in on the take of Emir and Garcian. So it
could all be a huge hoax in order to just start political unrest enough to allow the
war that takes place at the end of the game!
How's that for an opinion?! What do you all think?

[b]Reposting - "In the name of Harman"[/b]

lepch1qosldnb In the Name of Harman Lead [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 13 06 5:24 PM
Reply Quote
TAGS : None

Does anybody have the vaguest idea who the hell Harman is in the game?
If you've noticed I left Kun Lan & Harman's profile blank in the cast page.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/cast.htm
Because I don't know what to say about them.
(Never did Greg nightmare's profile either,but that's because I'm lazy.)
The plot faq has the most logical conclusion of who Harman Smith is, but even than I'm still confused.
Who the hell is the old guy in the wheelchair at Garcian's trailer?
Did he even exist to begin with? Or was it too just an imaginary being?
I view one harman as a state of mind,another Harman as the real person (principal of Coburn),and the other Harman as a celestial entity.
Hell for all I know the young Harman was probably just a government agent posing as Harman Smith.
I may seem like I'm asking rhetorical questions,but fo' real though I'm asking straight up,
(This is the main reason why I only stick to politics,because it's the only part of the game that makes sense, and doesn't rely on specualation.)

True Grave #1 [-]
Posts: 950
May 13 06 8:49 PM
Reply Quote

Well I've read that FAQ that speaks of three entities of Harman Smith. And I can say for sure there at least was a man named Harman Smith. After all,
his dead body is evidence as well as his past relationship with Colburn Elementary. But it does make sense that there are 3 separate versions of
Harman Smith. The Harman Smith that personally knows Kun Lan must exist on a celestial level since I believe that Kun does too. I mean the
epilouge that takes place 100 years later shows both men in the same physical condition they were 100 years ago. And it reinforces the Japanese
theme of a never ending battle between good and evil, which is also shown in the kick ass movie "Versus."
When you see "Master" Harman dead inside the trailer, one thing is clear. That version of Harman Smith has been dead since you first turned Killer
7 on. In the mission "Smile" we are also given the facts that what Emir saw inside the safe was the dead body of Harman Smith. This in turn
awokened his third eye. At this point in the game we see Emir losing touch with Garcian Smith, and is being re-introducted to his true self, Emir
Parkreiner. And we also know that Emir has some immortality, because the game did say he killed himself at the age of 13. As for the man inside the
trailer with Samantha, my answer is it's the body of a man that has been dressed up by Emir, and taken care of by Samantha who is being paid by
Emir to do so. I mean when ever you are inside Master Harman's room after Samantha "turns off the lights" you can freely walk around to talk to
Iwarazu. But we never really see the full face of the man sitting in the wheelchair. As for the "lights" deal, I believe this is the way Emir
"communicates with the dead Harman Smith. He has to switch to the Harman channel, where no other personality is selectable, not even his own.
Samantha probably changes to help him deal with this facade, and once the "lights" are off she turns back into the college slut every frat boy has
dreamed of.
Now Young Harman Smith is something I'm still dealing with. I'm refering to the man who weilds the Tommy Gun, (or Chicago Typewriter) in Killer 8
mode. Two things are clear. One, he is the man who shot the shit outta both Kun Lan and H. Smith in the top floor of the hotel. So he has the
ability to intereact with them on thier celestial level, if thats where they are in that part of the game. Two, Young H. Smith can physically
communicate and interact with Emir/Garcian. He, along with Johnny Gagnon, were also at the top floor of the Hotel talking to Emir/Garcian during
both of his visits to the Hotel.
I also see the symbolism that particular plot FAQ says about all the characters representing one big Chess game.


lepch1qosldnb #2 [-]
You seem to be getting way too much info from the plot faq. Which is mostly speculation, & not official. The plot faq is commendable though since
it's obvious that he conducted a lot of research while writing the faq.
I do admit most of the plot faq does coincide with what I believe it still doesn't provide any concrete answers.
I do agree that Versus & K7 do share a common theme,but it's not a battle of good & evil.
IMO Kun Lan is not, and never was evil.
(Ignore all the profiles that call him evil. I feel that's just part of killer 7's propaganda theme that was introduced in Alter ego.)
He embodies the rebellious,chaotic,revolutionary side in all of us. Where as Harman Smith embodies Law & Order, Slave/servant & Master.
(Garcian=slave/servant Harman=master)
It's more of an eternal battle battle between order & chaos.
In the K7 plot faq it's even stated that Harman Smith could be considered an anti-christ figure. I actually agree with this,because of his extreme
version of law & order. (Law= Harman's word, Order= Death from the 7 Smiths.)
If you remember the ending in Versus the girl says something about how she should've been on the other guys side. (The bad guy)
Because the hero turned out to be worse than the bad guy ever was.
The hero of Versus pretty much destroys the world in the future due to his chaotic nature.
That was not Johnny Gagnon at the top of the hotel. It was the Third eye
Dimitri nightmare.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/handsmile.jpg
The third eye is a common trait of enlightenment that we all share, but not everybody can open their 3rd eye.
http://www.bethcoleman.net/3rdeye.html
I don't believe that Garcian is immortal, because during the game young Harman said he first met Garcian at the rooftop the night of the murders.
Meaning that Emir possibly didn't endure a fatal blow. (Even though he shot the inside of his mouth.)
The way I see it the supposed fact that Emir killed himself is probably being used as propaganda by the government to cover up the secret of the
union hotel murders. If you look back at history you realize that almost everything that we know of as fact, is in fact inaccurate,and is merely the
commonly accepted truth by the masses.
For every truth that we know there's always another side to the story only known by a handful of the population.
What I'm trying to get at is the Emir is a mere human who doesn't have any super natural powers. The super natural powers that Emir has came from
the original Harman Smith, because Garcian is also a persona of Harman Smith himself.
Due to Emir's lack of emotonal stability that he's had since the Union hotel murders it was easy for certain factions within the American government
to brainwash Emir into believing a certain reality.
This coincides with the whole purpose of Coburn Elementary.
Which is an institue that brainwashes kids utilizing japanese WW II Elementary school doctrine to infiltrate the American government making them
side with the Japanese covertly.
The interesting aspect about Samantha is that according to Hand in Killer 7, she really was appointed there (Garcian's trailer.) to faciliate Emir's
facade by an agent from the U.S. government.
Which makes sense, because Emir's illusion started to fall apart when both Samantha & Mills died.
Yes I also agree with Killer 7 being one big chess game,but that's mainly because in essence that's all geo politics really is one big chess game.
We've all been driven into a stalemate ever since WW II.
Instead of total wars most 1st world governments fight using information warfare much similar to all the events that you see transpire in killer 7.
IMO the War on terrorism is just an operation to mask their motives to make it sound more heroic. (I'm not a liberal btw so don't expect moi to
shout about oil or some other nonsense. I'm strictly a libertarian.)
In Killer 7 the videogame equivalent of "War on Terrorism" would be the Yakumo cabinet policy which also masks the intents of the Japanese
government
So far we pretty much agree on two things
1.The Harman Smith in the trailer is just some nobody masquerading as Harman Smith.
2. We have no clue who Young Harman Smith is, or what he's suppose to represent.

True Grave #3 [-]
Posts: 950
May 16 06 12:09 PM
Reply Quote

I see your points. I just wish I had a better understanding of who Dimitri Nightmare is and why he's significant. I guess it makes sense that he is the
second guy sitting with Harman Smith, and the Hand in Killer 7 says he is Harman's bodyguard. The only reason why I doubt this is because the final
pigeon letter says that Gagnon is with Harman Smith, and they are both waiting for Emir. Plus, he is totally and completely useless in the game, plot
wise, since he doesn't say a thing, nor is introducted to the player. Remember, Johnny is introduced by the pigeon letters. I'd rather believe its
Johnny Gagnon.
I still can't take the Hand in Killer 7 novel seriously. I see too many differences between the game, and the book that I guess came form the
information and plot of the game. Unless its backwards. One is the real story and the other is inspired by events and characters of the other story.


lepch1qosldnb #4 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 27 06 6:48 AM
Reply Quote
[quote]True Grave wrote:
I see your points. I just wish I had a better understanding of who Dimitri Nightmare is and why he's significant. I guess it makes
sense that he is the second guy sitting with Harman Smith, and the Hand in Killer 7 says he is Harman's bodyguard. The only
reason why I doubt this is because the final pigeon letter says that Gagnon is with Harman Smith, and they are both waiting for
Emir. Plus, he is totally and completely useless in the game, plot wise, since he doesn't say a thing, nor is introducted to the
player. Remember, Johnny is introduced by the pigeon letters. I'd rather believe its Johnny Gagnon.
I still can't take the Hand in Killer 7 novel seriously. I see too many differences between the game, and the book that I guess
came form the information and plot of the game. Unless its backwards. One is the real story and the other is inspired by events
and characters of the other story.[/quote]
The plot faq also claims that Iwazaru's wife was actually Emir's mom.
That just sounds way too far fetched for my taste. I'd rather follow the instructions that Shockley haynes wrote near the end of the faq. Which is
draw your own conclusions.

BTW Hand in killer 7 isn't a novel. It's more like a scrapbook/guidebook containing miscellaneous info.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/handinkiller.htm
Check the gallery out. It looks more like a strategy guide rather than a novel.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mB-DGmwKxyo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nIVdjxrRyWI

If you notice the above trailers are exact replicas of the storyboards contained within
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/preskecth.jpg
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/preskecth1.jpg
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/prototypekiller.jpg
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/prototypekiller1.jpg
I've noticed a particular kind of behavior in various messageboards such as Gamefaqs,gamespot.
Where I see so many individuals that criticsize HIK 7 (Which is official,and is wrtitten by SUDA 51.) in favour of Shockley Haynes eloquently written
plot faq. (Which is mostly speculation.) The behavior most likely stems from the fact that people often like to stick with the product that they
knew first.
HIK 7 is basically the game that was originally in the making when K7 first started development.
~ In other words the game that we got was basically just a condensed rearranged version of the original story from HIK 7. If you look closely
enough both stories still have the same basic premise. Japan trying to survive as a nation & the U.S. trying to shut Japan up from spilling the
truth of the U.S. government. Hik 7 is more detailed & lets you know that Japan was destroyed in the end. The game due to time constraints
mixes & meshs several key themes & elements from the original story told in HIK 7. In the end both Hik 7 & the game leave the origins of Kun
Lan & Harman questionable at best. The only thing that is absolute is that they are in league with each other & both are working to achieve the
same purpose. Using they're own methods.
I believe that most of the info in HIK7 is still relevant to the game. Especially when you see the rundown of the current political organizations that
exist within Killer 7.
When they say that Dimitri Nightmare is Harman's bodyguard I believe they meant that in a figuretive sense.
Like I said Dimitri is supposed to be the 3rd eye.
He's probably meant to be just a symbolic humanoid presentation of the truth & nothing more.
K7 mixes sureality with reality almost constantly mainly,because that's exactly what the world of a madman (Emir/Garcian) looks like.
Most serial killers live in a world rife with dellusion which is why they are able to kill so casually with moral ambiquity.
Look at the bellhop. Hik 7 has his name listed as Edo Macalister.
(A character from FSR who sees & remembers all of the names of guests who stay at Hotel FSR. He's also dead,and happened to be a ghost. When
Garcian Smith meets Edo Macalister,Ed's theme music ~ a piano piece by Erik Satie plays in the background.)
For most of us outside of Japan that means nothing.
For those of us who have played Flower,Sun & Rain Edo Maclister's cameo meant that Garcian is about to awake from his dream & face the truth.
(The dream being his facade as the Killer 7. The truth being the appearance of Dimitri Nightmare. I have a more detailed explanation of Edo's cameo
in some other thread.)
Interesting enough "Awake from your dream" use to be the catch phrase for Killer 7 back when the game was still in it's beta stage.
Although the Killer 7 game never told you the name of the bellhop I think it's pretty safe to assume that he still served his purpose in the plot.
So just because Dimitri never says a word that doesn't mean that you could just rule him out of the game.

lepch1qosldnb #5 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 27 06 6:49 AM
Reply Quote

The problem with Killer 7 is that the games story is so open ended (Forces you to think) that we only see what we want to see or believe.
A detail that I have to point out about the story of K7 is that the more you know about politics & the way that the world operates behind the
scenes.
The more that you will be able to understand the story of Killer 7.
Check out this url.
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/signsguide.htm
It's full of terms that are relevant to the world of Killer 7.
Once y'all learn those terms & the meaning behind them I'm hoping that more peolpe will be able to see the Killer 7 plot that I see.
Everybody else can view that man sitting next to Harman as Johnny Gagnon
(Which IMO is a ridculous conclusion. Johnny is just a guy that relays intell about the K7. In the grand scheme of politics he's nothing more than a
worthless fly that's ready to be forgotten & swept under the rug. Whatever he knows is useless which explains why he was killed during a pigeon
letter & his existance in the world was soon erased. It's a basic government clean up op,& Young Harman does claim to be a governemnt agent so
you can fill the pieces in there.)
I choose to believe that Dimitri is just a human presentation of truth.
That's what a 3rd eye is. It enlightens the mind,body & soul.
Without the 3rd eye Garcian may have never broke out of the mind control that he has endured from the government.
The thing you may have not noticed yet about Johnny Gagnon is that he was put there to relay disinformation. He's a CoIntellPro agent.
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm
As far as I recall not once has Johnny Gagnon ever relayed any usefull info at all. Interesting perhaps,but not what I would consider relevant.
The only people/spirits in the whole game that you can trust without a shadow of a doubt are Travis & Iwazaru,because they never lie to you.
Even Chris Mills lies to you constantly in order to maintain Garcian's blind loyalty to the U.S. government.
On the other hand Travis & Iwazaru relay so much info all at one time that it's often a bit hard to decipher at first. Though everything they say does happen to be true for the world of Killer 7.

It seems to fly over most peoples heads,but propaganda is one of the main themes of Killer 7,and it's also used constantly.
It seems to me that people just don't want to believe that Garcian has actually been hallucinating the whole time.
The events in the game do indeed happen,but the way Garcian views the scenes & events were greatly exaggerated by his government programing.
In his mind. Emir may have thought that he's speaking to a disembodied head. In reality it was probably just a watermelon.
In Emir's mind he thinks that he committed suicide & shot himself.
In reality it was probably a lie implanted into his brain that is believed to be reality,because everybody believes it.
Note: Suda51 confirms that Emir really did shoot himself.
To further illustrate my viewpoint there's an excerpt in this link that had something to do with Cia agents implanting Multiple Personality's into
teenage girls. (Too bad I can't find it. I'll quote it when ever I come across it again.)
http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol10pg
The only things that remains true are that the Heaven Smiles are real & Garcian does in fact change into different bodies,persona,mind & souls of
the Killer 7.
mainly because that's an ability that he inherited from harman Smith.
One of the reasons why Emir was able to exist as Garcian for so long is because he was acting the exact way that he was programmed to by the
government.
If you listen to Linda Vermilion's speech carefully you can tell that she knew something about Garcian that he didn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdjR0rizNr8
She also knew that he was begining to reawaken.
Judging from this I guess I really do need to write my article for Emir,since I guess most folks still haven't noticed that he's a product of government
exploitation.

True Grave #6 [-]
You're not gonna want me to say this, but after watching the ending again, I'm still convinced the man sitting next to Young Harman Smith is not Dimitri Nightmare. He does not look like the character in HiK 7 book. Which is unfair because the character described as Dimitri in the book is
shown in a very small amount of room.
I do understand most of your points. And even before reading Hayes's plot faq I was able to understand that Garcian was hallucinating the entire
time. The case contained all the personalities guns, and when ever he used a specific gun he took on the mindset of that matching killer.
On a side note I read the plot faq by Hayes before I knew about HiK 7, which did lead me to HiK 7.
I also like the connection you made with Edo. I really wish the game had done a better job explaining him. But this is even more reason why I wish I
could play FSR. Now that I know more about Edo, its really cool that he is in K7. And I dont know if you have said this in another thread, but do you
think that Edo is linked to Kevin Smith?
I also want to ask you a question. Tell me all that you can. What parts of Killer 7 take place in reality?


lepch1qosldnb #7 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
May 31 06 3:59 AM
Reply Quote

Note: I have to bold out the links in this wall of text.
Edo & Kevin Smith are completely unrelated.
It's just a pointless cameo that some how makes sense when you think about it long enough.
Edo Macalister isn't even that important in FSR,except that
he re appears 4 or six chapters after his death in the FSR game.
Which help you realize that something about the "reality" within the Lospass island resort is really screwed up.
Since even you come back 4 or 6 chapters after you died as well.
(You control two detectives that have loose connections to Suda 51's "The Silver Affair" during the chapters where you happen to be dead.)
FSR & K7 have completly different themes the only thing they have in common is that they're both surreal & involve assassins.
K7 has more of an over the top violent pulp noir vibe going on,whereas FSR is more of a mystery/thriller about a tourist island resort.
One theme that both games share in common is "Kill the Past".
For K7 it refers to a man that either forgotten or blocked out his past. In FSR it refers to getting rid of the past to move on with the present.
I'm actually disapointed with the Edo cameo,because he doesn't really contribute much to the story.
The original FSR cameo was supposed to be Sundance.
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/?
wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gpara.com%2Fspecial%2Fsoft%2Ffsr%2Fr18.htm&submit=Translate&wb_dis=2&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_co=excitejapan
A character that would've really stirred things up in the world of K7.
He had a much bigger role in Killer 7 than Edo Macalister ever did.
He was in the beta trailer of K7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIVdjxrRyWI
Sundance is the eye patch guy with the creepy vox that says "Awake from your dream."
I'm guessing they replaced his cameo in the game so Sundance won't end up becoming co owned by Capcom. Much similar to how Blair Dame from
Street Fighter Ex was deleted out of the series,because Arika wanted full rights to her character design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_Jack_(Street_Fighter)#Blair_Dame
(Judging from that Kurayami interview that Emir posted up,I'm guessing that Suda 51 only has co rights to Killer 7.)
Another reason I believe is because Sundance would over shadow both Kun Lan & Harman Smith. Which would cheapen both of their (Harman &
Kun) characters.
Sundance is what I would like to describe as the Devil's Advocate.
He seems like a bad guy,but only has good intentions.
It's just the way he operates makes him seem like an unsavory guy.
(Sundance shoots you in the head and kills you in FSR. Course a later revelation in the game makes you realize that you were livng in past memories
of other individuals that had the same identity as you.)
Unfortunately Sundance's role in K7 seems to be written out of the K7 canon for both the game & HIK7.
I used to believe that Killer 7 & FSR took place in the same universe,but I'm not sure now,because K7 is property of capcom.

I'm interested in what you have to say about Dimitri nightmare.
Could you explain how they don't look like the same person
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/handsmile.jpg
Check the top left chart that lists all the identities/people that Garcian is currently involved with. (It's interesting that Linda Vermilion made it into
the chart.)
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/handchart.jpg
Check out the young harman convo.
http://www.killer7.3dactionplanet.gamespy.com/dl.htm
They're wearing the same attire & have the same basic appearance IMO.
I honestly don't see a diff. between the two.

All the events in the game did occur it's just the way that it's presented to the player that happens to be exaggerated.
This is just speculation but when Garcian gets into the fight with Kurahashi & the other UN. guy. (The japanese guys that throw brains at you.)
I'm thinking that in reality Garcian was probably just dancing around with himself or doing some other crazy ish trying to dodge brains that weren't
really there,but when he regained conciousness and came to.
The Japanese politicians were already dead,because Matsuken killed them.
In Matsuken's pov he thought he saw Kun Lan & two guys with their brains blown off,but in reality it was probably just a discussion that was
ocurring within an astral reality.
The real world that Matsuken was in was nothing more than a room with two Japanese guys that he just killed.
(Which explains why the room was empty when Matsuken left the room.)
If there's one thing that I've noticed about Harman & Kun is that they only appear in celestial dimensions & or astral projections.
The only time you see a true solid figure of Harman Smith is through the safe. (I still have no idea about Young Harman.)
I don't think you ever see a solid figure of Kun Lan at all in the game.
Though HIK 7 claims that Kun Lan is an old man trapped inside an insane asylum.
That's the way I see it...
I wouldn't be able to tell you the exact instances anyway,because nothing is concrete in the final product of the game besides the politics.
It's more due to how horribly convoluted the story of K7 is.
(I assume the only reason that the game doesn't make sense is because much of the game was condensed & rearranged. Flower,Sun & Rain doesn't
have continuty problems like K7 does,and if it did it's certainly not to the magnitude of the contridictions that exist in Killer 7.
The pigeon letters alone have many contridictions contained in them.)
As much as most K7 fans wouldn't like to hear this...K7 is more or less the victim of poor planning & execution.
Possibly even censorship as well.
if this beta trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB-DGmwKxyo
& the anime intro of K7 where a heaven smile bombs the us embassy are any indication i'm guessing that the heaven Smiles were originally meant to be normal humans that had a tranced look in their face,but was editted out,because they're suicide bombers.
Plus part-nah I think Dan Smith just capped the brains out of a nun in that trailer.
that's bound to cause controversy.

True Grave #8 [-]
Posts: 950
Jun 3 06 8:43 PM
Reply Quote
Wow, that beta trailer was awsome. I loved how Con had large Uzis instead of simple auto handguns. And I loved how Young Harman Smith was in it.
Looks like he might have played a bigger role.
Honestly I can also say that Kevin Smith was damn near useless. At least to the plot. I found myself playing as him because I felt sorry for the poor
sucker. It was cool having the ability to just run through traps and enemies. Plus the no-reload knives were cool.
And thanks to you I can't stop watching that water park commercial...
Plus your last post have driven me even more to play FSR.


lepch1qosldnb #9 [-]
MPD Psycho
Posts: 4813
Jun 24 06 8:08 PM
Reply Quote
Man I still need to post a reply I just haven't had the time lately.
After visiting one of the sites linked on Akura's blog I saw an interesting banner at a fanart site.
I guess that Killer 7,FSR, & Silver Case/Affair really are related with each other.
http://www.interq.or.jp/blue/patriot/top.html
It's a sad shame I have a hard time locating a copy of Silver Case.
I'd like to see if that game had any reocurring characters & themes in K7 like FSR did.

True Grave #10 [-]
Posts: 950
Jun 25 06 5:57 PM
Reply Quote
I just wanna play all those games...
Guess I have to learn Japanese first.
Brave or Grave
"Yo, how's it goin' with next week's story, huh?"

Akura #11 [-]
avatar
MPD Psycho
Posts: 503
Jun 26 06 1:12 AM
Pantzmaster
Reply Quote
Perhaps someday into the distant future they'll have a three-pack. Killer7, FSR and SC all in one. They did it with Silent Hill, why not with these
three GHM/Suda 51 games? My only peeve with the Silent Hill pack is that it didn't contain the first one. =/

True Grave #12 [-]
Posts: 950
Jun 26 06 7:45 PM
Reply Quote
I wanna know why SH3 didn't make it to the xbox? I mean it is a GH title on PS2. They could have given it the extra treatment like in SH2 restless
dreams. And have put it on the PS2 as a GH special edition.
I'd love to see a GHM three pack like that. The sad part is it will most likely never happen. I doubt any publisher will buy the rights, even Capcom.